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Piracy is Not Theft: Problems of a Nonsense Metaphor

torrentfreak.com

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Re: Piracy is Not Theft: Problems of a Nonsense Metaphor

#11

Post by MichaelGG »

epo wrote: post #8

Depriving others of revenue IS theft. If the terms of use for a service or product require payment then any use without payment is, in effect, theft. These juvenile justifications are how 13-year olds comfort themeselves about their behaviour. Don't want to pay? Don't use it.

"Depriving others of revenue IS theft." - No, it is not. This is a much more complex scenario, and reducing it to simple lines like that doesn't further the discussion at all. (Not to mention there's a million ways to "deprive others of revenue". What if I slander you, so that people stop buying your service? Do you really want to call that theft?)

Take the example of a DVD you've already purchased for personal use. If I rip that to play on my unlicensed OS, is it theft? What if I rip the DVD so I can email a link to my brother, instead of shipping him the DVD? Calling this theft is pointless, unless the point is to unfairly frame the debate.

Re: Piracy is Not Theft: Problems of a Nonsense Metaphor

#12

Post by MichaelGG »

mbyrne wrote: post #7

Question for the article author: Could you explain why "piracy" is not also a nonsense metaphor? Piracy is an act of robbery and/or criminal violence at sea. It feels like 99% of arguments are between people who haven't clearly defined the meaning of words they are arguing over.

I believe nowadays "piracy" isn't being used as a metaphor at all, it's just a re-purposing of a word. No one is conflating the act of sea robbery with copyright infringement. No one is saying "Our navies need more funding because of these pirates." With "theft", there's no metaphor being used. It's trying to set things up to use theft as a synonym for copyright infringement.

Re: Piracy is Not Theft: Problems of a Nonsense Metaphor

#13

Post by MichaelGG »

bradharper wrote: post #10

"There is no loss when something is copied, or the loss is radically different from losing something like your bike..." The question is not about tangible loss, it's about property rights, and the forceful encroachment thereof. Being semantically picky about the concept doesn't alter the fact that the property of one individual is interacted with apart from their prerogative, i.e., their right to property is being vi…

A lot of the issue is about how the debate is being framed. There's no value in a discussion to shift terms around to confuse the issue. Copyright infringement is well defined; there's no need to use "theft".

"Call it theft or not, the legal repercussions should be the same."

You are aware there's a difference between uploading a file, and breaking into your house to steal a physical DVD? Why on earth should a license violation be considered a criminal offense?

Re: Piracy is Not Theft: Problems of a Nonsense Metaphor

#14

Post by rick888 »

It's not theft. It's worse. Theft of something like a television means just that physical physical is stolen. It's the cost of doing business.

Over time, if piracy is not stopped, users will get the idea that your software is free and will be unwilling to pay for it in the future. This has the potential to destroy the profits for your entire product. Big companies like Microsoft and Adobe can handle this, but it's devastating to a smaller company.

Companies also lose money through support calls from people that haven't purchased the product (this happens more than you think).

Think about the newspaper industry: It's dying because you can get news stories anywhere, for free. Why would it be any different for the software industry?

Torrentfreak is a pro-piracy site. They want to change the word "theft" to something positive so piracy is accepted as a positive thing. It's not positive.

Piracy is the equivalent of a big company farming their work out to China: they don't want to pay the big prices here (software that's expensive) or worry about restrictions (drm/copy protection), so they go somewhere else where it's cheaper (piracy sites/bittorrent).

Re: Piracy is Not Theft: Problems of a Nonsense Metaphor

#15

Post by bradharper »

MichaelGG wrote: post #13
bradharper wrote: post #10

"There is no loss when something is copied, or the loss is radically different from losing something like your bike..." The question is not about tangible loss, it's about property rights, and the forceful encroachment thereof. Being semantically picky about the concept doesn't alter the fact that the property of one individual is interacted with apart from their prerogative, i.e., their right to property is being vi…

A lot of the issue is about how the debate is being framed. There's no value in a discussion to shift terms around to confuse the issue. Copyright infringement is well defined; there's no need to use "theft". "Call it theft or not, the legal repercussions should be the same." You are aware there's a difference between uploading a file, and breaking into your house to steal a physical DVD? Why on earth should a licens…

"Why on earth should a license violation be considered a criminal offense?"

Why shouldn't it? In principle, they are the same - which is my whole point.

Re: Piracy is Not Theft: Problems of a Nonsense Metaphor

#16

Post by rick888 »

MichaelGG wrote: post #13
bradharper wrote: post #10

"There is no loss when something is copied, or the loss is radically different from losing something like your bike..." The question is not about tangible loss, it's about property rights, and the forceful encroachment thereof. Being semantically picky about the concept doesn't alter the fact that the property of one individual is interacted with apart from their prerogative, i.e., their right to property is being vi…

A lot of the issue is about how the debate is being framed. There's no value in a discussion to shift terms around to confuse the issue. Copyright infringement is well defined; there's no need to use "theft". "Call it theft or not, the legal repercussions should be the same." You are aware there's a difference between uploading a file, and breaking into your house to steal a physical DVD? Why on earth should a licens…

Identity theft is still called theft, even though there's no actual stealing going on. You still have your identity, it's just copied.

I'm waiting for another GNU license violation story to come out, because when a company uses source code in a proprietary app and doesn't follow the license, people here throw around the word "theft" even though there's no actual stealing going on. A good example is the Thesis Theme.

Re: Piracy is Not Theft: Problems of a Nonsense Metaphor

#17

Post by frobozz »

rick888 wrote: post #16
MichaelGG wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the issue is about how the debate is being framed. There's no value in a discussion to shift terms around to confuse the issue. Copyright infringement is well defined; there's no need to use "theft". "Call it theft or not, the legal repercussions should be the same." You are aware there's a difference between uploading a file, and breaking into your house to steal a physical DVD? Why on earth should a licens…

Identity theft is still called theft, even though there's no actual stealing going on. You still have your identity, it's just copied. I'm waiting for another GNU license violation story to come out, because when a company uses source code in a proprietary app and doesn't follow the license, people here throw around the word "theft" even though there's no actual stealing going on. A good example is the Thesis Theme.

The trouble with the term identity theft is that there typically _is_ actual stealing going on, but that it's not actually your identity that is being stolen.

Identity thieves don't normally just go around introducing themselves to strangers with the stolen identity. Were that the case, it would rarely be a problem. They apply for loans with no intention to repay, and buy goods with the goal of landing the bill with the real owner of the identity.

Re: Piracy is Not Theft: Problems of a Nonsense Metaphor

#18

Post by yuzuha »

rick888 wrote: post #16
MichaelGG wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the issue is about how the debate is being framed. There's no value in a discussion to shift terms around to confuse the issue. Copyright infringement is well defined; there's no need to use "theft". "Call it theft or not, the legal repercussions should be the same." You are aware there's a difference between uploading a file, and breaking into your house to steal a physical DVD? Why on earth should a licens…

Identity theft is still called theft, even though there's no actual stealing going on. You still have your identity, it's just copied. I'm waiting for another GNU license violation story to come out, because when a company uses source code in a proprietary app and doesn't follow the license, people here throw around the word "theft" even though there's no actual stealing going on. A good example is the Thesis Theme.

Copying is just copying. By using it for your own benefit however, you are directly influencing (for the better or worse, but definitely without permission) the original's value, worth, rights.

If you were just copying someone's identity, you wouldn't do anything with it would you?

Re: Piracy is Not Theft: Problems of a Nonsense Metaphor

#19

Post by frobozz »

MichaelGG wrote: post #11
epo wrote: post #8

Depriving others of revenue IS theft. If the terms of use for a service or product require payment then any use without payment is, in effect, theft. These juvenile justifications are how 13-year olds comfort themeselves about their behaviour. Don't want to pay? Don't use it.

"Depriving others of revenue IS theft." - No, it is not. This is a much more complex scenario, and reducing it to simple lines like that doesn't further the discussion at all. (Not to mention there's a million ways to "deprive others of revenue". What if I slander you, so that people stop buying your service? Do you really want to call that theft?) Take the example of a DVD you've already purchased for personal use.…

> "what if I slander you"...

An even more important example - What if I open up a competing business with better advertising and greater value for money? That deprives others of revenue, but is neither criminally nor civilly illegal, and only in certain cases could it even be considered immoral.

Re: Piracy is Not Theft: Problems of a Nonsense Metaphor

#20

Post by technoslut »

frobozz wrote: post #17
rick888 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Identity theft is still called theft, even though there's no actual stealing going on. You still have your identity, it's just copied. I'm waiting for another GNU license violation story to come out, because when a company uses source code in a proprietary app and doesn't follow the license, people here throw around the word "theft" even though there's no actual stealing going on. A good example is the Thesis Theme.

The trouble with the term identity theft is that there typically _is_ actual stealing going on, but that it's not actually your identity that is being stolen. Identity thieves don't normally just go around introducing themselves to strangers with the stolen identity. Were that the case, it would rarely be a problem. They apply for loans with no intention to repay, and buy goods with the goal of landing the bill with…

It's curious that you mention this because I had my identity stolen when I went to college. A Chinese student was currently using my SS# at a school. The same school. I had to go out of my way to prove I was the correct owner of the number.

He is charging loans on my account. Is that not a form of theft?

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