If you thought drivers on the road are bad now, this is is a sneak peek of the dystopian future where other drivers on the road drive like they are a support ticket for Facebook or Google. If your situation isn’t covered by the preprogrammed logic, you’re out of luck with nobody to talk to. Self driving vehicles belong on rails.
Yep and all phones should be copper land lines. Yawn.
Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco
471–480 of 514 posts
Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco
#472Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah keep dreaming. I’d like to see you put a Waymo car or any other “self driving” car in a city that hasn’t been mapped and see how it does. And The cars do not update maps in real time, they send any changes they find and the company updates the database after reviewing. If they were able to update in real time then why need a HD map in the first place?
They 100% map and distribute changes to the whole fleet in real time. Waymo and others have talked about it multiple times. It seems you just don’t want to believe it because that would mean your biggest talking point going out of the window.
Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco
#473Earlier quoted context omitted.
40k people are dying a year from cars, and the problem is that driverless electric cars are not the solution. They are the faster horse kind of innovation. If we were serious about reducing fatalities, improving health, and reducing pollution, the solution would be to drastically reduce the amount of miles driven per year and the number and the size of the cars. We need to encourage people to bike and walk and use pu…
> The zoning laws and car centric development of cities is the issue. Well, the main issue is that most of the cars on the road during the busiest hours have just 1 person in them. I think when the dust finally settles, the main form of passenger transit in urban-ish areas will basically be something that looks like autonomous vans. Unlike public transit today, they won't have predefined timetables, nor predefined st…
Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco
#474Earlier quoted context omitted.
NOAA doesn't list any meaningful geomagnetic storms right now: https://www.swpc.noaa.gov/communities/space-weather-enthusia... But that aside, I'd really hope that these cars are using professional WAAS-capable GPS receivers. Short of a major X-class flare which knocks out the WAAS geostationary satellites, the entire point of the system is to correct for these kinds of disturbances to the GPS signals.
I'm not really seeing anything weird with GNSS. I have a continuously-operating receiver that writes its location into a database every second; I did a query over the last 30 days and there is no abnormal deviation in position. (My receiver is in a terrible location that can only see a tiny sliver of the sky, and is single-band, so I expect about a +/- 50cm deviation without RTK correction and that's what I'm seeing.…
You can see that there isn't any significant interference visible in the Bay area, or the rest of the United states except for the typical activity in and around military ranges—That huge region in New Mexico experiencing moderate interference is not typical, but seems to correspond with planned testing around White Sands Missile Range, according to an FAA NOTAM[1].
It’s possible that my methodology wouldn’t pick up interference if it’s caused by a low-power jammer or some source of EFI that only has an effect within a few hundred feet.
More details on the methodology behind those maps:
The ADS-B signals that many aircraft broadcast include not just the aircraft's GPS positions, but also a measure of GPS accuracy (strictly speaking, ADS-B doesn't talk about GPS specifically and can handle any sort of navigation technology; I'm sure there are some planes out there reporting positions based on inertial navigation systems, with correspondingly low accuracy, or GLONASS-derived positions, or whatever, but my understanding is that right now something on the order of 99% of aircraft with ADS-B are using good old GPS so I'll just keep using the term GPS in this description). If you go to https://globe.adsbexchange.com and click on just about any aircraft, you'll see an info sidebar on the left of the screen. Scroll down until you see the ACCURACY section, and you'll see values labeled NACp, SIL, NACv, NICbaro, and Rc. Those are all self-reported measures of the accuracy of the data being sent by the aircraft[2]. NACp is "Navigation Accuracy Category for position", and is a good measure of whether the aircraft's GPS is working well. (A somewhat obscure feature of ADS-B Exchange lets you see a map of all aircraft that are currently reporting poor navigation accuracy for their GPS: https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?badgps)
To make the maps, I process a day's worth of data from ADS-B Exchange to find all the aircraft reporting poor navigation accuracy and then I color map hexes (using H3 hexes) according to the proportion of aircraft passing through that hex that reported bad GPS accuracy. Specifically, I'm counting an aircraft as experiencing "interference" if it at some point reported good navigation accuracy and then reported low accuracy. Doing this helps filter out aircraft that just have an ongoing issue with their GPS equipment, or don't even have GPS.
When I do that, areas where there is systematic interference—almost always jamming by military systems—become obvious. There are a few conflict zones (Syria, Cyprus, Israel) that have been experiencing jamming for years, and the U.S. often has smaller scale military testing, especially in the West and Southwest. You can also see the jammers that are apparently setup around Moscow to prevent drones from flying near Oligarch dachas[3].
I started making these maps in February before Russia invaded Ukraine because I thought it might provide an early warning of an invasion. I didn't see that, and in fact this technique doesn't do a very good job of mapping GPS jamming around the actual war zones because civil aviation stopped over Ukraine, so there are zero or few aircraft with ADS-B reporting their GPS accuracy[4]. Without that data, I can't make a map.
Sometimes I do see changes, like when Russia suddenly started jamming around Kaliningrad in March 2022, causing interference in many Baltic states and leading to Finland to cancel some flights[5]. Then a few days later, they just stopped.
[Edit:] I don't think too many people have realized yet what an amazing source of GPS interference data is available using ADS-B! It's like having thousands of sensors roaming the planet, broadcasting GPS accuracy data every few seconds. I sometimes wonder if I would disrupt someone's nascent business model if I started publishing my maps regularly.
(I have a Synology setup with 12 TB that I use to store various sensor data—I highly recommend it.)
1. https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2022/Jun/WSMRNM_22-0... 2. https://twitter.com/lemonodor/status/1493789598077440000 3. https://www.gpsworld.com/jammers-at-dachas-add-to-russias-ab... 4. https://twitter.com/lemonodor/status/1497295859196649475 5. https://twitter.com/lemonodor/status/1500719113185816577
Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco
#475Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not really seeing anything weird with GNSS. I have a continuously-operating receiver that writes its location into a database every second; I did a query over the last 30 days and there is no abnormal deviation in position. (My receiver is in a terrible location that can only see a tiny sliver of the sky, and is single-band, so I expect about a +/- 50cm deviation without RTK correction and that's what I'm seeing.…
I've been looking at GNSS (mostly GPS, really) interference around the world for a few months. I just generated some maps of the U.S. for the past few days: https://twitter.com/lemonodor/status/1542941996746039297 You can see that there isn't any significant interference visible in the Bay area, or the rest of the United states except for the typical activity in and around military ranges—That huge region in New Mexi…
Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco
#476I am just wondering how many people have to die before it finally dawns on on us that the current approach is idiotic. The supposed smart cars can't even talk to each-other directly 'without internet' to warn of a car pileup! They can't report to city traffic control about their condition. We should be innovating in infrastructure instead - create standardised computer readable infrared road markings, equip each traf…
Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco
#477Earlier quoted context omitted.
They 100% map and distribute changes to the whole fleet in real time. Waymo and others have talked about it multiple times. It seems you just don’t want to believe it because that would mean your biggest talking point going out of the window.
Send me these talks. I genuinely want to see it, I’m willing to change my opinion on HD maps if it’s true.
Waymo patent portfolio related to mapping — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uf-5cimWzA
Cruise blog about detecting and rolling out map changes "in minutes" — https://medium.com/cruise/hd-maps-self-driving-cars-b6444720...
Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco
#478I am just wondering how many people have to die before it finally dawns on on us that the current approach is idiotic. The supposed smart cars can't even talk to each-other directly 'without internet' to warn of a car pileup! They can't report to city traffic control about their condition. We should be innovating in infrastructure instead - create standardised computer readable infrared road markings, equip each traf…
Sounds like a lot of infra and related spend via taxes or muni debt for a tech outcome that’s a privacy and autonomy nightmare. Build some trains, build some bike lanes, and leave the people alone who don’t want their transportation and the downstream reasons people use it taken over by tech. Governance by a central cybernetic super computer and all the cybernetic hypothesis coming true. Good lord.
> create standardised computer readable infrared road markings, equip each traffic light and each lamp post with a radio beacon, each crash barrier could have a radio marker, create PUBLIC maps of each city, have a central traffic control sypercomputer in each city provide directions to cars. Have each car painted with infrared markers so they recognise each-other.
It is amazing how often tech savy folks can reinvent trains.
Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco
#479Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not really seeing anything weird with GNSS. I have a continuously-operating receiver that writes its location into a database every second; I did a query over the last 30 days and there is no abnormal deviation in position. (My receiver is in a terrible location that can only see a tiny sliver of the sky, and is single-band, so I expect about a +/- 50cm deviation without RTK correction and that's what I'm seeing.…
I've been looking at GNSS (mostly GPS, really) interference around the world for a few months. I just generated some maps of the U.S. for the past few days: https://twitter.com/lemonodor/status/1542941996746039297 You can see that there isn't any significant interference visible in the Bay area, or the rest of the United states except for the typical activity in and around military ranges—That huge region in New Mexi…
Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco
#480Earlier quoted context omitted.
Send me these talks. I genuinely want to see it, I’m willing to change my opinion on HD maps if it’s true.
Waymo blog talking about change detection and automated information sharing — https://blog.waymo.com/2020/09/the-waymo-driver-handbook-map... Waymo patent portfolio related to mapping — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uf-5cimWzA Cruise blog about detecting and rolling out map changes "in minutes" — https://medium.com/cruise/hd-maps-self-driving-cars-b6444720...
What you’re referring to is that the car will send a notice and update the fleet to avoid that area.
Actual changes to the maps including crosswalk changes and other permanent structures require review and update. It is not done automatically.
————— From the article:
If a change in the roadway is detected, our vehicle can identify it, reroute itself, and automatically share this information with our operations center and the rest of the fleet in real time.
We can also identify more permanent changes to the driving environment, such as a new crosswalk, an extra vehicle lane squeezed into a wide road, or a new travel restriction, and quickly and efficiently update our maps so that our fleet has the most accurate information about the world around it at all times.