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Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

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Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Permissionless, censorship-resistant global money transfer 2. Smart contracts 3. Append-only logs synchronised between mutually distrusting parties 4. Decentralised identities 5. Microtransactions for online games and to replace web advertising

>1. Permissionless, censorship-resistant global money transfer >5. Microtransactions for online games and to replace web advertising how money transfer and microtransactions are different?

They are (at least) two separate use cases, even though they are both examples of sending money. (You could equally say that they are all examples of sending data).

1. Some people want to be able to send large amounts of money internationally to their family in a country which has currency controls and "official" exchange rates. Others want to be able to send funds to organisations that have been banned by traditional money transmitters, such as Wikileaks, or protest groups, or adult content, or cannabis.

5. Separate groups of people don't have a problem with their government's fiscal or censorship policies, but simply want to be able to buy an emote or a skin in an online game, or to listen to a piece of music or read an article without being tracked around the web or needing to wire 50 cents from their bank in Mongolia to the service provider's bank in Cyprus.

Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#172
post #75
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess we'll find out if they have learned anything since the XML Signature specification. That was an adventure, trying to find a subset that actually did what it said it did.

XMLSignature is one of the worst security standards i have ever read. Do we sign the bytes of the document? No, we canonicalize it first? How do we canonicalize? Multiple ways. Do all documents with the same canonicalization have the same DOM? No. Which part of the document do we sign? Up to you. Its a wonder there aren't more major saml breaches.

The biggest problem is that getElementByID doesn’t fucking work.

And then if you sign sibling documents, you essentially have most of the same problems you have with ensuring a zip file doesn’t have a malicious payload, because file cannonicalization is fraught with issues.

It took me a couple pages of don’ts to nail it down, and I missed a big one that I didn’t see until pretty late in the project.

Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#173

As a user, I am very happy that W3C has overruled the objections. As a developer, it may a bit of a PITA, albeit a necessary one. For Google, it makes sense for them to request at least some "standard" methods. If the number of DID methods is sufficiently large, Google won't be able to use their network effect to dominate any of them. Surprise, that's the aim of the spec. For Mozilla, it makes sense to support a smal…

What is the Web 3.0 garbage? I though DID needed some sort of blockchain like Bitcoin.

The word "blockchain" is mentioned only once in the spec, and only in one of the 12 use cases.

The garbage part is that 9 of 10 (give or take) methods registered on https://www.w3.org/TR/did-spec-registries/#did-methods are from crypto-hyper-cosmos-nonsense.

The reason is that serious organizations like MasterCard or BankID will only begin considering registering a method once the spec is a W3C Recommendation. At this stage, only insignificantly small or heavily invested parties registered a method on a draft standard (which is what a "proposed recommendation" roughly means).

Edit: nope, I was wrong, Mastercard has one https://github.com/Mastercard/did-methods/blob/master/id.md

Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Permissionless, censorship-resistant global money transfer 2. Smart contracts 3. Append-only logs synchronised between mutually distrusting parties 4. Decentralised identities 5. Microtransactions for online games and to replace web advertising

1. Except cryptocurrencies aren't any good for that, because the transaction costs are too high, and the value of cryptocurrencies too volatile. Cryptocurrencies are not a medium of exchange. 2. Now, what's a valid use-case for a smart contract, and please explain how it functions if there's a bug in the contract? 3. Maybe. You'll need to provide a more concrete use-case. Also, you have the outside-world problem (you…

1. If you're sending a portion of your monthly wages as a remittance to your family, spending a dollar[1] isn't too much.

2. A smart contract allows decentralised organisations to function, with democratic voting and transparency. (That's not appropriate or necessary for every organisation, but it can be an improvement on one person hosting a server and saying "Trust me"). If there's a bug in the contract, you have to vote to change the contract. Traditional contracts, businesses, and even countries fail all the time, but we haven't give up on them as concepts.

3. For a concrete use-case, I offer the example of blockchain technology being used to make the fishing industry supply chain more transparent.[3] It's true that someone could enter fake information onto the blockchain, but they could also fake signatures on paperwork, so a system can still be useful even if it doesn't prevent all possible attacks.

4. If the ledger isn't trustless, then someone is controlling it, so your identities aren't really decentralised.

5. There are better currencies than BTC if transaction costs are the main concern. The equivalent number for BCH is half a cent.[5]

[1] https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees...

[3] https://www.reutersevents.com/sustainability/using-blockchai...

[5] https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin%20cash-transact...

Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Except cryptocurrencies aren't any good for that, because the transaction costs are too high, and the value of cryptocurrencies too volatile. Cryptocurrencies are not a medium of exchange. 2. Now, what's a valid use-case for a smart contract, and please explain how it functions if there's a bug in the contract? 3. Maybe. You'll need to provide a more concrete use-case. Also, you have the outside-world problem (you…

1. If you're sending a portion of your monthly wages as a remittance to your family, spending a dollar[1] isn't too much. 2. A smart contract allows decentralised organisations to function, with democratic voting and transparency. (That's not appropriate or necessary for every organisation, but it can be an improvement on one person hosting a server and saying "Trust me"). If there's a bug in the contract, you have t…

> A smart contract allows decentralised organisations to function, with democratic voting and transparency.

A smart contract is neither smart, nor a contract. It's a program, written in an esoteric language, and running in the world's most inefficient VM.

It's so bad and overcomplicated that "smart contract" authors themselves routinely make mistakes in code equivalent to the most basic of actual contracts. And since there's no avenue of recourse, these mistakes are irreversible.

"Smart contracts" also require the user to pay for any meaningful action.

As for "transparency", there's no transparency when something is enforced by code very few can read and understand (compared to actual contracts that can be read by humans).

As for "democracy", there's nothing democratic about "who has the most money has the most votes".

> Traditional contracts, businesses, and even countries fail all the time, but we haven't give up on them as concepts

Because we have thousands of years of history teaching us how to deal with those, and guess what, we've come up with multiple things like:

- regulations

- contract clauses dealing with failure

- avenues of recourse

- various methods of enforcement

Crypto bros pretend that these things are unnecessary, but then immediately turn to courts to sue scammers, or cry in cryptoforums when a "smart contract" bug wipes their wallets out.

Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#176
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it speaks extreme volumes that the "methods" of "did" and "com" were both proposed by no-name crypto organizations; "cosmos" seems to be proposed by one guy with a template website maybe unrelated to the relatively major Cosmos blockchain (they're fighting amongst themselves lol); "ens" was proposed by some organization with no website; "evan" was picked up by literally some guy named Evan. Its not just that…

Don't forget the Korean Ministry of the Interior, who are apparently using a two-line Markdown file as their website and a random Gmail address as their only method of contact. For an identity verification standard, you'd think they'd demand the authors have more verifiable identities.

I understand that the list presented there is more-so early stage proposals; its not like they've been registered to manage that DID method.

That being said; it speaks some amount to the professionalism of the authors and supporters of this spec. The sane people ask: what are the real, tangible use-cases? There's no answer. Ok, well short of that: are there are least real, tangible organizations who will be building on top of this?

Not only is the answer weak, but the meeting notes from the DID-WG indicate a high level aversion to any known, named authority participating in a significant capacity [1]. They were rather concerned about Mastercard's proposed "id" DID method, for privacy/centralization reasons, maybe those are valid but...

> Markus Sabadello: … Even if we don’t apply it, since in the past we haven’t, even then I think this registration should not be accepted as-is, because it’s incomplete..

> Manu Sporny: Just about every DID Method is incomplete… not a good criteria..

It really comes off as a bunch of people who are mad at the centralization of big tech, want to change it, but lack focus & expertise on how to implement that change. And they managed to drag W3C/TBL down to their level.

[1] https://www.w3.org/2019/did-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2022-01-11-d...

Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On second reading with that background knowledge, the crypto pedigree reveals itself: "decentralized", "distributed", "independently of any centralized registry", "distributed ledger", "non-registry based", etc... It all makes sense now! It's yet another attempt at making Web 3.0 happen. Sigh...

I'd argue that of those, "distributed ledger" is the only real red-flaggy one -- and even then, only because of its association with blockchain. I think when engineering web technologies, we should hope to find a lot of talk about decentralized, distributed stuff independent of central registries.

Yes.

There is did:peer: and did:git: don't know what issues some people here have with blockchain scams again.

Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. If you're sending a portion of your monthly wages as a remittance to your family, spending a dollar[1] isn't too much. 2. A smart contract allows decentralised organisations to function, with democratic voting and transparency. (That's not appropriate or necessary for every organisation, but it can be an improvement on one person hosting a server and saying "Trust me"). If there's a bug in the contract, you have t…

> A smart contract allows decentralised organisations to function, with democratic voting and transparency. A smart contract is neither smart, nor a contract. It's a program, written in an esoteric language, and running in the world's most inefficient VM. It's so bad and overcomplicated that "smart contract" authors themselves routinely make mistakes in code equivalent to the most basic of actual contracts. And since…

Sorry, but you sound like tech skeptics in every generation ever, saying “the Dewey Decimal system works perfectly well, why do we need computers just to find a book”? (Yes, I have heard this exact objection raised by radio hosts to early computer pioneers who tried to explain why computers will become useful for regular people.)

Email became useful and replaced the post office

Web 1.0 became useful and replaced TV, radio, magazines

Web 2.0 became useful and allowed people to communicate but still hasn’t been truly decentralized

What makes you think that Web3 replacing trusted gatekeepers is not useful? You think “just trust me” is the best system we can possibly have for writing code that does some business logic?

For me it’s simple: if there is something that’s very valuable (some NFT, some role, some election, some large balance of USDT) then I prefer that my customers custody their own keys and deal with that themselves. Less liability for me. Rather than having a guy with keys to the database log in and potentially change the result of an election, and having to track down logs and deal with lawsuits etc. I just want smart contracts to deal with it, and each participant can only take the actions they are allowed to take - no exceptions. No central point of failure for security. No need for audits OF TRANSACTIONSby auditors who can also be corrupted.

How do we make sure that smart contracts are correct? Audits, battle testing and with Cardano we even have provable correctness. UniSwap likely has no exploitable bugs, for instance, or they would have been found. Every instance of UniSwap AMMs comes out of the same factory. THE END RESULT is far more reliable than any code that runs on only one machine by a “trust me” corp.

Sorry buddy, you can shill your centralized “trust me” all you want but you sound like Peter Schiff and his gold. You just don’t get it.

1. No liability for transactions, only for code

2. Open source infrastructure

3. No central entities who can corrupt the system in unlimited ways

4. People can only do what is allowed, no matter what

5. Code operates regardless of whether the central entity is around in 20-30 years

6. Different incentives (selling tokens is far more user-friendly than selling shares to a parasitic investor class that will cause you to extract rents forever and introduce dark patterns and lockin at the expense of the public).

7. Interoperability — on-chain data can be used for other smart contracts and any websites can read the data.

8. Global interoperability, no need to rely on a patchwork of currencies and money transmission legs and banks that Stripe takes care of for you. USDC is an ERC20 token and you write code, not connecting to a billion little APIs. Similarly to HTTP letting you go worldwide vs what Twilio had to do for you, or negotiating syndication by radio stations.

Of course I think blockchain is a first-gen technology but it enables this and a lot more !

Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#179
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> despite the name, oauth2 is not about authentication, it's only about authorization OAuth is short for Authorization in the first place. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6749

What a brilliant and unambiguous abbreviation!

Because this is my specialty, I long ago learned to specify either authn or authz. The OAuth spec should have been the OAuthz spec.

Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A half-baked protocol is worse than no protocol at all. I think the literal opposite is true, no?

If there is no protocol nobody expects interoperability. If there is a half-baked protocol everyone expects interoperability but it never works as it should.

> never works as it should.

Not only that, by exploiting ambiguities and gaps, protocols can be made to work as they shouldn't. At least that keeps the security consultants in business.

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