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Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

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Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#171

Post by nikatwork »

nhaehnle wrote: post #2

In general, this type of sandbox is a Good Thing. I would love to live in a world where the default environment for any program is a very limited sandbox that can only interact with the outside world via standardized UI elements. That is, outside a data store specific to the application, it can only access files via the standard dialogs, and so forth. The potential for malware distribution would be significantly redu…

"Yet I simply cannot safely try them out without an exorbitant amount of work."

If you are on Windows, Sandboxie is excellent for this. Just right-click the untrusted .exe and select "Run sandboxed".

http://www.sandboxie.com/

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#172

Post by flomo »

mbq wrote: post #169
flomo wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can you possibly claim that this wont increase security? I've honestly never heard of a third-party Mac application which contains spyware or steals personal information. It just does not seem like a huge problem which needs to be solved. (Of course there have been security issues with things like Adobe Acrobat and MS Office. But big ISV software is the least likely to be affected by app store restrictions.)

MacDefender?

Perhaps I should have said 'legit' application.

On the Windows side, there's things like file-sharing software which is packaged with toolbars and malware. That kind of thing is unheard of in the Mac world, especially in the app store.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#173

Post by fpgeek »

heyrhett wrote: post #160

I think that it demonstrates that we've passed the era where people want "a computer" to do things. People want a smartphones, tablets, notebooks, etc. People are not buying these devices for their raw computing power, and they don't want the freedom to access all of it. People want these devices to "work" at their respective tasks. Apple is becoming the sole gatekeeper of apps to their devices. For example, after be…

Imagine if MS did the same thing with windows.

If Microsoft had done the same thing with Windows, Apple as we know it today wouldn't exist, if they even existed at all.

To me, it is mind-blowing that, nevertheless, (most) Apple fans are perfectly happy with the shoe on the other foot.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#174

Post by fpgeek »

saturdaysaint wrote: post #85
rbanffy wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can still distribute I think "still" is the important word here.

Nope. The gadget-oriented press misses it completely, but Apple's history of catering to creative professionals and media industries goes just as deep as any of their control freak tendencies. Coming straight from Jobs, the purpose of these computers was to serve the arts. They're deeply attuned to the technical requirements (eg plugins) for creative software as well as to what creative pros of all stripes are using.…

But they were perfectly willing to ruin Final Cut Pro X for creative professionals (and only re-released the previous version after a huge backlash)?

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#175

Post by fpgeek »

Duff wrote: post #131
saturdaysaint wrote: post #50

This article mostly seems to ignore the fact that you can still distribute apps outside of the App Store. In fact, considering the falling costs of hosting and easy access to marketing tools (look at the quality of the website for any Mac App), it's probably never been easier. For pro apps with dedicated audiences (see: Adobe, Ableton, Avid, Nuance) which is just about anything with a plugin architecture, the App Sto…

Apple is loving the huge revenue share in the App Store on iOS. Do you really think that they will not try to use the app store as a tollgate for everything? 30% of Adobe sales == big number.

Apple is loving the level of platform control they get from the iOS App Store even more.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#176

Post by fpgeek »

statictype wrote: post #3

This would worry me if there weren't at least two other major Operating Systems available to choose from. The Mac is moving more towards simplicity and safety - targeting normal consumers. That's fine. Ironically, now Linux and Windows (and anything else that comes up down the line) will have to serve as the 'Computer for the rest of us'

Soon to be 1.5 major operating systems (since Windows 8 Metro apps are going to be locked down in exactly the way people fear is coming from Apple evolving the Mac App Store).

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#177

Post by fpgeek »

DrJokepu wrote: post #63
nknight wrote: post #7

I can think of only two GUI apps I semi-regularly use that can't fit within those restrictions: VMware Fusion, and Steam. Plugins are a red herring. Some poorly-designed plugin infrastructures will not be workable, boo-hoo. Valid use cases can be accommodated with proper message passing. Maybe we'll finally get applications that don't crash horribly because of buggy plug-ins?

Xcode, Firefox, Safari, Google Chrome, VLC Player, Dropbox, BBEdit, TextMate, StuffIt, UnRarX. These are all well-known OS X applications, all of them having important features that require being able to open an arbitrary file without user interaction.

Xcode and Safari will get special exemptions, of course.

But putting aside short-run user backlash, do you really think Apple gives a damn whether Firefox, Chrome or VLC run on OS X? Judging by iOS, they might actually prefer it if they didn't.

After that you're left with archiving, text editors and Dropbox (which Apple might well want to replace with iCloud in the long run), which doesn't sound like that much to me.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#178

Post by fpgeek »

vasi wrote: post #73

While it's possible that Apple could ban non-App Store programs, I don't see this as the likely threat. More plausible to me is that new APIs in OS X will, like iCloud, become available only to App Store apps. Eventually anything that's not in the App Store will feel like the most ancient Carbon apps feel now. Why prompt an exodus of users over a mass ban of apps, when you can just slowly and surely take over the mar…

Indeed. Apple's become very, very good at boiling frogs slowly. And I believe there are already at least a few APIs that are only for App Store apps.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#179

Post by ZipCordManiac »

fpgeek wrote: post #173
heyrhett wrote: post #160

I think that it demonstrates that we've passed the era where people want "a computer" to do things. People want a smartphones, tablets, notebooks, etc. People are not buying these devices for their raw computing power, and they don't want the freedom to access all of it. People want these devices to "work" at their respective tasks. Apple is becoming the sole gatekeeper of apps to their devices. For example, after be…

Imagine if MS did the same thing with windows. If Microsoft had done the same thing with Windows, Apple as we know it today wouldn't exist, if they even existed at all. To me, it is mind-blowing that, nevertheless, (most) Apple fans are perfectly happy with the shoe on the other foot.

As a longtime Mac user (since the 80s) , it pains me to think my next purchase won't be a Macintosh, but I can't ignore the writing on the wall any longer. Apple used to be about freedom and creativity - now they just want to give the best user experience while keeping users safe and maximizing profits. Not an all-together horrible goal, but also not the kind of computer I want to use. I want a computer, not a toaster or a microwave. People have for years called mac kid computers, and I never really agreed with them before now. This kind of development really puts the final nail in the coffin though. These computers are made for people who simply want a locked down boring experience. It's a sign of the times, just look at the TSA.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#180

Post by fpgeek »

bengl3rt wrote: post #121
makira wrote: post #42

The problem with the current sandboxing is the missing entitlements, for simple things like: - Using the burning framework (cd & dvd burning) - Interfacing with Apple Remotes - Having a shared container between a main app and a helper app Also, many utilities will have to be removed from the App Store because of sandboxing, and that will likely cut revenues dramatically for those developers.

Yep, looks like whatever version of my app (DubPlate) that's up on the store in March '12 is the version that's going to be there in perpetuity, because it can't be updated for the sandbox on account of its using the CD burner pretty much as a core feature.

Wouldn't Apple remove it from the App Store for non-compliance at some point? That's what they do on the iOS side.
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