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Where does Google actually say that they won’t read Gmail or Google Docs?

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Re: Where does Google actually say that they won’t read Gmail or Google Docs?

#71

Post by nobody31 »

patrickaljord wrote: post #66
dotBen wrote: post #51

the tl:dr of this comment thread is that most HN'ers have sadly taken the question too literally and are commenting on the fact Google reads emails with a definition of "read" being that of "parse" (ie computationally). I think most people know and expect they obviously do that, for advertising targeting etc. I can't believe people are shocked or surprised at that. Which is a shame because I think it's pretty clear t…

> Which is a shame because I think it's pretty clear the OP is actually asking about Google employees reading your email Unless you run your own smtp and pop/imap mail servers, there is no way to be sure no one will read your emails. Even then, your servers could get hacked or maybe your contacts use a hosted solution (and most people do) that could get hacked, there is again no guaranty. The only work around is to f…

Except that Lucent have no real reason to put firmware in a fiber switch to read your email as it goes down the tubes.

A company that makes all it's money from targetted ads - might

Re: Where does Google actually say that they won’t read Gmail or Google Docs?

#72

Post by Retric »

Bud wrote: post #26
ceejayoz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's federal law that Google needs to hand over everything in the scope of the warrant . No law requires Google to give the FBI "everything they have", especially if there isn't a court order.

Nor is the GP post accurate about what Google's options are, since it's obviously an option to bring in the lawyers, resist, and get a court order to block FBI's actions for a while, if Google were inclined to do so. I tend to scoff at the notion that FBI would start "dismantling data centers" in the manner described.

Note: This was about "Lulz Security group and any affiliated hackers" which means the FBI was far from a ticking time bomb scenario.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/21/f-b-i-seizes-web-se... The F.B.I. seized Web servers in a raid on a data center early Tuesday, causing several Web sites, including those run by the New York publisher Curbed Network, to go offline. ... “Our servers happened to be in with some naughty servers,” he said, adding that his sites were not the target of the raid. Curbed is working to get its sites back online, probably by Wednesday.

PS: When the FBI shows up you have zero rights to prevent them from taking anything on site, the only thing a lawyers can do is prevent evidence from being used in a court case after the fact. Granted, at Google scale they are more concerned with backlash and it takes a lot of effort to confiscate that much hardware, but that's not going to stop them in the case of a major incident. Also, by failing to help you are breaking the law let alone trying to stop them.

Re: Where does Google actually say that they won’t read Gmail or Google Docs?

#73

Post by patrickaljord »

nobody31 wrote: post #71
patrickaljord wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is a shame because I think it's pretty clear the OP is actually asking about Google employees reading your email Unless you run your own smtp and pop/imap mail servers, there is no way to be sure no one will read your emails. Even then, your servers could get hacked or maybe your contacts use a hosted solution (and most people do) that could get hacked, there is again no guaranty. The only work around is to f…

Except that Lucent have no real reason to put firmware in a fiber switch to read your email as it goes down the tubes. A company that makes all it's money from targetted ads - might

Did you even read parent's post? We all agree that google (and yahoo, and hotmail) parse our emails to offer better ads and to index them for search. What we're talking about is bad employees reading your emails for their own curiosity.

Re: Where does Google actually say that they won’t read Gmail or Google Docs?

#74

Post by oelewapperke »

pyre wrote: post #52
jcdreads wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you trust a company not to do you harm with the information they store, there exist entities that can compel them to turn this information over. For example, the information can be (sometimes secretly) subpoenaed by the U.S. government. The choice between being evil and not being evil can be an easier one to make, practically speaking, than the choice between being evil and becoming the target of federal crim…

What are the chances that some random hosting company won't just do the same thing if you ran all of your services on a VPS or colo box?

Actually you can prevent that using trusted computing.

First the VM is started. Upon boot is asks the TPM to certify the "secure computing base", resulting in a key : a series of bytes that is the hash of all computer code that could potentially affect the execution of the program. This key is used to encrypt the real root drive, via an intermediary key. THe TPM hash reported cannot be falsified due to, well, look up why that's not possible.

You select the trusted computing base the VPS provider is supposed to use, one that doesn't allow for interference except within agreed parameters, and they won't be able to interfere.

If they change the key, or the kernel, they cannot get the key needed to decrypt the hard drive image, so their info is useless.

(after this you obviously make sure you can't communicate with the box unencrypted)

Done/done.

Re: Where does Google actually say that they won’t read Gmail or Google Docs?

#75

Post by brendn »

nobody31 wrote: post #71
patrickaljord wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is a shame because I think it's pretty clear the OP is actually asking about Google employees reading your email Unless you run your own smtp and pop/imap mail servers, there is no way to be sure no one will read your emails. Even then, your servers could get hacked or maybe your contacts use a hosted solution (and most people do) that could get hacked, there is again no guaranty. The only work around is to f…

Except that Lucent have no real reason to put firmware in a fiber switch to read your email as it goes down the tubes. A company that makes all it's money from targetted ads - might

This is getting off-topic, but did you forget about AT&T's secret rooms that were recording internet traffic? It's not just Google that wants to read your mail. Governments want to spy on their citizens, and ISPs are (allegedly) cooperating in the effort.

Re: Where does Google actually say that they won’t read Gmail or Google Docs?

#76

Post by cma »

nobody31 wrote: post #71
patrickaljord wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is a shame because I think it's pretty clear the OP is actually asking about Google employees reading your email Unless you run your own smtp and pop/imap mail servers, there is no way to be sure no one will read your emails. Even then, your servers could get hacked or maybe your contacts use a hosted solution (and most people do) that could get hacked, there is again no guaranty. The only work around is to f…

Except that Lucent have no real reason to put firmware in a fiber switch to read your email as it goes down the tubes. A company that makes all it's money from targetted ads - might

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NarusInsight

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/04/70621

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_co...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_(software)

Re: Where does Google actually say that they won’t read Gmail or Google Docs?

#77

Post by RK »

patrickaljord wrote: post #66
dotBen wrote: post #51

the tl:dr of this comment thread is that most HN'ers have sadly taken the question too literally and are commenting on the fact Google reads emails with a definition of "read" being that of "parse" (ie computationally). I think most people know and expect they obviously do that, for advertising targeting etc. I can't believe people are shocked or surprised at that. Which is a shame because I think it's pretty clear t…

> Which is a shame because I think it's pretty clear the OP is actually asking about Google employees reading your email Unless you run your own smtp and pop/imap mail servers, there is no way to be sure no one will read your emails. Even then, your servers could get hacked or maybe your contacts use a hosted solution (and most people do) that could get hacked, there is again no guaranty. The only work around is to f…

Unless you run your own smtp and pop/imap mail servers, there is no way to be sure no one will read your emails.

I think you really want to encrypt your email for that kind of peace of mind. Of course you need buy in from your contacts.

Re: Where does Google actually say that they won’t read Gmail or Google Docs?

#78

Post by dotBen »

brendn wrote: post #75
nobody31 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that Lucent have no real reason to put firmware in a fiber switch to read your email as it goes down the tubes. A company that makes all it's money from targetted ads - might

This is getting off-topic, but did you forget about AT&T's secret rooms that were recording internet traffic? It's not just Google that wants to read your mail. Governments want to spy on their citizens, and ISPs are (allegedly) cooperating in the effort.

sure but that's basically a "constant" in that it's going to happen regardless of where you receive your emails.

Re: Where does Google actually say that they won’t read Gmail or Google Docs?

#79

Post by wladimir »

angdis wrote: post #24

The real question is not whether google, dropbox or anyone else has explicit "policies" about reading content from users. They're just going to say whatever makes them look good from a marketing and legal perspective. Companies lie all the time, systematically and comprehensively. They act in their own self-interest period. From their point of view it is merely a question of how much they can get away with. The more…

Exactly. And that applies to any company not just "evil" ones. It is a bit naive to trust something as abstract as an organization. Trust applies to individual people, and a company is bound to be a very diverse group of people with different agendas.

If you want your mail to be reasonably safe from third-party reading, the only solution is to encrypt it before sending, and ask people that mail you to do the same. Anything that relies on trust is a half-assed solution.

Re: Where does Google actually say that they won’t read Gmail or Google Docs?

#80

Post by waitwhat »

ahi wrote: post #35

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/09/google-spy/ http://gawker.com/5637234/gcreep-google-engineer-stalked-tee... Even if they say they won't it looks like they are lacking some internal controls.

Rogue employees are a fact of life. That they were caught shows that Google's internal controls are (at least reasonably) effective.
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