Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco • Hacker News Board

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#451

Post by ClumsyPilot » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 3:42 PM UTC

hcks wrote: post #436

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #388

I am just wondering how many people have to die before it finally dawns on on us that the current approach is idiotic. The supposed smart cars can't even talk to each-other directly 'without internet' to warn of a car pileup! They can't report to city traffic control about their condition. We should be innovating in infrastructure instead - create standardised computer readable infrared road markings, equip each traf…

This seems to be the dominant opinion is here, that is, to approach this problem as we approached civil aviation and flying commercial planes. To respond in a sentence: first, you have no proof that "investing in infrastructure" would actually yield working autonomous cars. Second, there are no proof either that the current approaches are doomed to fail. To respond in details: everything that you propose doesn't seem…

> These challenges are all about edge-cases, and responding safely to changing conditions and misbehaviors from other agents... The response cannot be "let's add a ton of fragile electronics"

Self driving car has failed to detect a person in the dark and killed her. It was demonstrated that Tesla autopilot fails to detect a child crossing the road. It confused a semi trailer and an underpass. You call that an edge case?

> The response cannot be "let's add a ton of fragile electronics in all of the infrastructure"

So instead we will add a ton of fragile electronics in every car. Instead of having 3 optimally positioned lidars monitoring an intersection, we will have 20 poorly positioned lidars on every car.

You don't need electronis, you can use paint. You can put QR codes that tell a car where it is in an underground parking lot. If we add a parrern to all clothing in infrared-only paint, that would help various AI detect people and tell them apart from surroundings. You can put a metal patterns on street signs that are detected by automotive radar.

> will cost a ton of money to build and maintain

And electronics in the cars will cost even more

> will break in weird ways over time and lead to cascading failures

You mean like the failure the main article is discussing right now?

> it's dubious that it would even work at all

And it's dubious this 'individual' approach will ever work. Every single argument you've made equally applies to the approach you are advocating.

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#452

Post by la64710 » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 3:51 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #419

la64710 wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>The supposed smart cars can't even talk to each-other directly 'without internet' to warn of a car pileup! They can't report to city traffic control about their condition. - This by far in my opinion is the single most important attribute of any autonomous fleet of vehicles that is needed. There should be first of all a standard of communication via RFC defined for autonomous vehicles and drones. Any vendor manufac…

I think this is a bad idea. The potential for a malicious/incompetent/malfunctioning actor to wreck havoc becomes enormous. Vehicles should assess and plan driving from first principles and physical sensory inputs. Networked inputs could be helpful as augmentation but it's not something one should rely on at all. Kind of like you shouldn't take a human showing/not showing a turn for a reliable signal of intent.

Yes this is augmentation only but it is essential to have. This is what replaces a driver to driver communication part. Like two drivers at a four way crossing sometimes signaling each other.

BTW being opinionated is fine but no need to downvote

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#453

Post by varjag » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

la64710 wrote: post #452

varjag wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a bad idea. The potential for a malicious/incompetent/malfunctioning actor to wreck havoc becomes enormous. Vehicles should assess and plan driving from first principles and physical sensory inputs. Networked inputs could be helpful as augmentation but it's not something one should rely on at all. Kind of like you shouldn't take a human showing/not showing a turn for a reliable signal of intent.

Yes this is augmentation only but it is essential to have. This is what replaces a driver to driver communication part. Like two drivers at a four way crossing sometimes signaling each other. BTW being opinionated is fine but no need to downvote

Say what? I didn't downvote you.

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#454

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 3:59 PM UTC

enriquto wrote: post #214

jvanderbot wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't get in the car with a new teenage driver, nor will I enable self-driving on my cars for a long, long time. And I work in robotics.

Yet every day you get in the road with new teenager drivers (and drunk people, and idiots of all sorts). Doesn't that scare you? Driving is terrifying.

[deleted]

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#455

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 4:02 PM UTC

sleepychu wrote: post #318

bjoli wrote: post #316

The promises of self driving cars have always seemed weird to me. Sure, I would love to have a world where all cars are self driving. The security benefits seem large. But decreasing congestion? We already know how to do that, and in many ways it seems like a safer bet than some kind of technogy with large problems and even larger unknowns; public transport. Cheap, well developed, reliable public transport will beat…

But you have to give up point to point, of course the overall throughput is better but the individual experience is (perceived) worse. This is why I love the idea of "public luxury" make sitting on a train or a bus nicer than sitting in a brand new mercedes.

That reminds me of the preference for white rice over more nutritious brown rice just because one is, well, white and the other isn't [1]. Similar with white flour I think.

We need to learn to appreciate things for what they're really worth to us (including their true costs) not just for what they look like.

_________________

Health problems come because of the polishing. Polishing rice into the sparkling white form that most people prefer has three major negative impacts on health.

The first is, polishing removes most of the vitamins and minerals that are vital to health. (...)

The second relates to diabetes, which is threatening to reach epidemic proportions in the Philippines over the next couple of decades. (...)

Finally, polishing rice also reduces its protein content, which can mean the difference between being well-nourished or malnourished.

(...) And, then, over the decades, the dominant culture defined brown rice as “dirty” and fit only for the poor, while white rice was seen as sophisticated and modern.

[1] https://ips-dc.org/why_billions_eat_unhealthy_riceand_should...

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#456

Post by bergenty » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 4:07 PM UTC

dogman144 wrote: post #438

bergenty wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rails are too restrictive for real life. I trust a self driving fleet to respond immediately to an emergency by stopping. Maybe causing a disruption but very little loss of life or property.

Makes you wonder how Europe, NYC, Boston, and (a lot of others) manage with their real life concerns and public transportation system.

Trains/subways are great within a city but don’t work well for larger areas.

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#457

Post by moffkalast » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

amq wrote: post #417

moffkalast wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cheap > well developed > reliable Speaking as a guy in Europe where we generally have "good" public transport, I think you can only ever have ONE of those at the same time, with some exceptions. Cheap fares? You get decrepit busses from the 80s and the timetable's just a suggestion (what my city used to have) Well developed? Development isn't cheap so fares get expensive, busses are Mercs that run on CNG and the ti…

Vienna, Austria: public transport costs 1 EUR per day without any limits. It is also extremely well developed and reliable. Most people, especially without kids don't even consider getting a car.

Damn that's cheap, it's 1.5 EUR per FARE in Ljubljana and it as reliable as a stoner.

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#458

Post by TaylorAlexander » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 4:28 PM UTC

HHC-Hunter wrote: post #228

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the government promised not to ever reduce GPS resolution some 15 years ago, and new satellites supposedly do not even have the ability to do so.

Oh my sweet summer child.

There was a specific technical capability that they used to reserve the right to use, and I believe they no longer need to use that capability. Obviously this would only be the case if they have some alternative capability. But I forget the name of the feature so I am having trouble looking up sources. I obviously do not take the government at its word, but I can believe that a technical capability developed in the 1980's might no longer be the most useful counter measure. Especially since there are now 5 GNSS constellation systems, with GPS only being one of them, and low cost off the shelf receivers can read all of them.

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#459

Post by denysvitali » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 4:29 PM UTC

smcl wrote: post #371

denysvitali wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans aren't any better at letting energency vehicles pass...

A human behind the wheel of a car is absolutely better at letting an emergency vehicle pass than a completely immobilised self-driving car

You haven't driven in the same places I did then :)

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#460

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 4:37 PM UTC

pembrook wrote: post #399

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You ever wonder where the food you eat gets grown and how it gets delivered" the argument is strange, they don't exactly deliver 40 tons of wheat to the bakery with a taxi. Noone is arguing against cargo and utility vehicles unless they can be substituted by railway (which could be better designed, etc) https://www.tescoplc.com/updates/2021/how-tesco-is-turning-t...

When public-transport-as-panacea folks create laws to disincentivize vehicles, they typically don't make distinction between cargo/utility and personal travel. Gasoline and vehicle import taxes, and anti-vehicle urban design and laws hit all forms of vehicular travel equally. But again we're still stuck talking about cities. In any area where food is grown (or literally anywhere on earth outside of the .0001% of land…

>> In any area where food is grown (or literally anywhere on earth outside of the .0001% of land that constitutes megacities), there is no public transport.

Here, I've put you smack in the middle of an area where food is grown and next to a rail station:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Alalkomenai/@38.4075142,22...

Drag the little man on the pin to admire the beautiful countryside.

Or scroll out to see the fields covering the land.

Btw, there are bus lines also but they don't appear on the map because the locals know where the stops are, and the bus drivers know where the stops are, and what they're called, and who will be waiting at what time, so there's no need for stop signs. Usually the signs were there when the routes were first created but they have er, gone missing since.