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Profanity Doesn't Work

hanselman.com

61–70 of 93 posts

Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#61

It is a poor man who relies upon swearing to have an impact upon his readers or listeners. I view it similar to "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Swearing may get the attention of people though it seems like a quick fix that won't last. You know what else gets people's attention? Slapping them. :P What is more lasting is effective teaching skills and telling stories well and to do these well it requir…

Don't assume that everywhere that speaks English has the same monoculture. A very strong aversion to swearing is, as far as I can tell, specifically American. I'm Scottish and I swear more or less continuously, using words that are considered to be the 'most offensive'. This isn't 'trying hard', it's simply a cultural artefact, a side-effect of growing up working class in a particular place in the world. This kind of…

In case people are assuming I'm American, I'll clarify. I'm not American, at all. My father is from Glasgow and I was born in Australia (Australians are known for their liberal swearing, it's the culture, apparently)—what other culture aside from Scots and Australians swear more and are less likely to be offended by it? ;)

With flaws/weaknesses I agree that they should be 'embraced' so that they can be improved upon and if needed, removed, and not to use flaws/weaknesses as excuses which may be for poor behaviour/actions/whatever.

It seems a common idea so far here and in most places is that 'not swearing' is inherently a religious side-effect. I have friends who are not religious and maintain their concepts of good, clean speech, of valuing what they say.

Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#62
post #10

I think he's correct in his assumption that it's only really in America that people are offended by swear words on a slide. I'm in Europe and no one I know would blink twice to see that - although I'd defo leave it out in a sales pitch! I personally thought the unnecessary swearing was quite amusing. It's nice to see someone not taking themselves too seriously (for a change). Also reminded me of Ted Dzuiba - anyone k…

Ted is still trolling away and being hilarious on his site, http://teddziuba.com

Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#63
Words become less powerful over time, it was't that long ago "hell" and "damn" were considered to be highly offensive, inevitably the swear words of our time will become the the emphasis words of the future.

I've always held the opinion that being offended by swearing is a sign of weakness. If a single syllable can make you angry or uncomfortable(when used in a context not specifically designed to insult you) then the problem is yours alone. Given that a negative feeling towards swearing is a purely conditioned response your energies would be better spent on learning to not be offended than attempt to censor everyone else.

I also find offence at swearing to be somewhat culturally specific. It seems to be much more of a concern in America than it is in other english speaking countries as it appears to be a much more conservative society generally.

Concern over swearing is a rather old fashioned ideal. In these modern times where we are no longer obligated to follow the crazy arbitrary rules of conduct required religion and tradition and are only required to conduct ourselves within the rule of law there is no need to bother with outdated social conventions. Every person has to make their own decisions about their personal conduct so it should not be assumed that everyone shares your own "calibration" of acceptable speech so only the intent of the speaker should be of concern not the particular words used.

So get over it, in 30 years "fuck" and "shit" will be the "hell" and "damn" of their time so why worry about it? Language changes over time, it always has and will so look forward not back.

Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#64
Personally, I don't use "fuck" on my company website, but I use it merrily on facebook and my personal blog. Looks like Zach used "shit" (OMG) on his personal blog, and Scott gets his knickers in a twist.

Can't help but notice that Scott works for Microsoft and Zach works for GitHub.

I don't think its a coincidence.

Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#65
post #9

What makes swearing any more offensive than say, not wearing a tie at some conference? Is there anything inherent in the tie and words or is there a cultural attachment to these things that raises emotions? So then, do we always cater to the current cultural trends, or do we pave our own ways in some way? Some times we're not always looking to please, attempts to be polite can lead to concealment of details that matt…

well said

Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#66
I work at a young startup. Swear words are so common that they are only noticed when used maliciously.

I only seem to care when older people swear, which is odd. I never liked when my dad swore, but with my peers it feels natural.

Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#67
post #17
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, there is an effect on the reader. Being indirect softens the blow for folks who are offended by it, much like a euphemism does.

People are always offended for "other" people, I would be curious to hear the thoughts of a person who is truly offended by the word fuck. Does it have some magic powers that cause it to fire off a pain circuit in mutant brains?

I find profanity offensive in general.

It's not words themselves that matter. It's what people mean by them. Saying "please", vacuous as it might be, communicates consideration. Profanity communicates the opposite.

Of course, it isn't that simple; language is language and context is everything. Sometimes someone swearing at you means, "Some people would be offended by this, but I know you can take it." The inconsiderate language is a compliment. Sometimes it means, "We don't have time for social niceties; this is important." It's like pounding your fist on a table or slamming a door. But by itself, the meaning is closer to, "I don't care about you, because I just don't."

Profanity can certainly be used well, but without a redeeming purpose the vibe is somewhere between stupidity and rudeness. I find that offensive. Not as in, "I'm wounded", but as in, "that's unpleasant."

Some of it's cultural, too. One family may be big on courtesy -- always saying, "please pass the butter" at dinner. Just reaching across the table at that house would give a lot of offense because it violates how they show consideration to each other. In another house, everyone may just reach for everything all the time, and it doesn't mean anything.

Profanity is a lot like that. In some crowds, any uncensored profanity is highly offensive, a nine out of ten. In others, vocabulary alone can't push the needle past two, and you need to start in with creative graphic descriptions if you really mean to offend.

People have a couple of different reactions to that.

Some people, particularly the folks with a high pain threshold, just assume their culture is better. They swear a lot and the subtext is, "I don't care if you're offended because I think your culture sucks anyway." Hardly polite.

Other folks try to speak the language of the crowd they're in. If you say "X is sh*t" to a mixed group, some will hear "X is stinky socks" while others will hear "X is bestiality and I hate you." If you're pretty sure where on the spectrum your crowd falls, you can go ahead and use the expression. If it's mixed, though, you had best go ahead and use whichever of the two phrases it is you actually mean.

Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#68

As a non-American, seeing people get upset about a bit of colourful language is quite amusing.

Same here. That americans even have the term "F-bomb" as if it's something explosive is very amusing. The main article goes on at length for such a mild word as 'shit'. He's complaining about the mildest of swear words being used not in a professional publication nor a boardroom sales pitch, but on a personal blog site, and then as a slide for a talk. Talks are usually about a meeting of peers, communicating on a peer level is usually expected.

From personal experience with long history of doing phone support, swearing helps. My rule of thumb is swear to one 'level' less than the user. If they're saying 'fuck', you can say 'shit', if they're saying 'shit', you don't swear. I've found that if you're not swearing and they are a lot, it puts them offside and they feel uncomfortable. One more unnecessary thing to manage.

But the author's sensitivities are ratchetted way too high. Do I want to 'help' my industry 'outlaw' swearing? Fuck no. I'm more interested in the content of what someone says than the way in which they say it. I'd rather listen to a profanity-laden speech about a tech topic than a slick-as-snot marketroid drone on about nothing important. It's 2011 - we should be offended by context, not by mere words.

Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#69
post #14

However, you take no chances of offending by not swearing, but you guarantee to offend someone if you do. Good. Fuck them. Believe me, we aren't going to get along. Best to know now. Also, I believe in evolution, think the earth is more than 4000 years old and I support gay marriage. That offends a ton of people and expressing that opinion has the same effect on those "relationships" as saying "fuck". You might think…

Well said.

Re: Profanity Doesn't Work

#70

I disagree with the article. Swearing is highly effective but only if rarely used. The article's author hints at innuendo, euphemisms, dysphemisms and doublespeak as alternatives to swearing. I am a firm believer and follower of concise eloquence so avoiding calling a spade a spade is akin to heresy. Come out and say it, don't avoid words when they perfectly describe something. Think of swearing as an alternative to…

The article's author hints at innuendo, euphemisms, dysphemisms and doublespeak as alternatives to swearing.

I love wordplay and regularly engage in it with my friends. But to write an article using wordplay as the basic tool for explaining anything other than wordplay is worse than being offensive. You run the risk of alienating a lot of English-as-second-language folks for a start, as they lack a lot of the fluency required. But even further, I've learned heavily and repeatedly that there are considerable differences between what many American English and British English speakers can take from talking in metaphor. British English speakers (and the British themselves, in particular) live and breathe metaphor.

I find that most people who can't understand speaking in metaphor are either English-second-language; American English speakers; or Brit English speakers who have dropped out of education early and have very little socialisation.

It's not to say there aren't American English folks who don't understand metaphor well, it's just that it's so common for them to misunderstand it. If you hear an individual saying "But that's not literally what I said" to defend what they have actually have said between-the-lines, it's unlikely that they're a British English speaker.

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