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Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

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Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#101
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On second reading with that background knowledge, the crypto pedigree reveals itself: "decentralized", "distributed", "independently of any centralized registry", "distributed ledger", "non-registry based", etc... It all makes sense now! It's yet another attempt at making Web 3.0 happen. Sigh...

Why sigh? Why are Bitcoin maxis and HN Web 2.0 people so intent on keeping everyone from advancing to the next phases of the Web? Do you like centralized VC-funded “cloud”-hosted startups incubated in Silicon Valley that get gobbled up by big tech or dumped on the public? You like the extreme power inequality between those who run these systems and the public? You think the best our systems can do is extract rents at…

> "Do you really think this won’t have any real applications?"

So where are they? The consensus is denying it on principle but rather wondering what it's actually useful for. It's strange to see all the claims of opportunities and problems to solve, yet nothing seems to be produced.

Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#102

Something that should be a bit of a warning flag is that I have two decades of identity-related experience but I still have no idea what DID even is . For reference, I've worked with three vendors' implementations of LDAP, several versions of SAML, OAuth, JWT, Okta, Azure Active Directory, etc, etc... I've even deployed Smart Card authentication in the field several times. I literally have no idea, not a clue what DI…

Azure Active Directory is on its way to use DIDs [0]

The forces in place here seems to be:

- distributed ledgers allow a different (decentralized) paradigm for identity management, where users own their identities and service providers authorize and authenticate them through verifiable credentials

- years of blockchains and even more years of web certificates have created processes to handle cryptographic material, that service providers supposedly find more secure than "username and password" to manage the identities issuing the verifiable credentials

- in realpolitik, Microsoft (Azure) is expanding in the cloud market by trying to establish a presence in niches (ie: Intel SGX, DIDs) [1]

I understand the overall skepticism about blockchain related technologies, but the intrinsic advantages that I see in them are:

- (for a service provider) having a tamper-proof log of all the auth changes for an identity

- (for a service provider/user) relying on cryptographic signatures allows for a private validation of an identity/claim

- (for a user) provided this is not EEE allover again, a greater degree of choices on how to manage your identity

I do not have as much experience as you do, so maybe there is some wheel-reinventing that I am not aware of :)

0. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/active-directory/veri...

1. https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/identity-standards-bl...

Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#103
As a user, I am very happy that W3C has overruled the objections. As a developer, it may a bit of a PITA, albeit a necessary one.

For Google, it makes sense for them to request at least some "standard" methods. If the number of DID methods is sufficiently large, Google won't be able to use their network effect to dominate any of them. Surprise, that's the aim of the spec.

For Mozilla, it makes sense to support a small set of DIDs, their resources are not infinite.

As a user, I want to use the DID method that works for ME. For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BankID is used universally in Scandinavia and I would not see why would anyone use DID for identifiers of "real world" things if a govenrment-accepted mechanism cannot be used (eg "did:bankid:*") for signing those identifiers etc. Because I already use BankID for all important authn things in my daily life. In Estonia, ID cards are used for legally binding signatures since forever, I can totally see how they might want to use that to sign their DIDs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_signature_in_Estonia

Regarding Web 3.0 garbage in the registry: just ignore it, nobody is going to use it seriously. Those entries are just marketing by those projects. If it was up to me, I would split the registry into two sections: registries with significant stakeholder backing (BankID and the likes) and everyone else (so that you can ignore them).

Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#104
Decentralization is a legitimate and important topic that is confused by the hype-driven blockchain bandwagon: a flock of a thousand red herrings. When searching for actual foundations to build a DApp on, you typically find libraries published by Crypto-startup-of-the-Week LTD. Why should I trust them?

Regardless of the legitimate issues raised by objectors, I am happy to have some W3C standard to build on. Methods may be underdefined, but as consensus is reached I could pivot to it. And even if no consensus is ever reached, I can at least try and reach consensus with the communities I care about.

Coupled with ActivityPub [1], this feels like a much safer foundation for building a DApp than anything else I have been able to find. The only thing that confuses me is the relationship between DID [2] and the Verifiable Credentials [3]. Can anybody explain how they relate, and how they should be used together (or not)?

[1] https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/

[2] https://w3c.github.io/did-core/

[3] https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/

Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#105
post #74
post #15

A standard flexible enough where you can do literally anything is usually a bad standard. The point of standards is to write up some small-ish base that everyone can agree on so that people can talk to each other. A standard containing everything where each implementation implements a different incompatible subset, is a failure.

3 sentences on why usb type-c/usb3/usb4/thunderbolt are a failure.

Those at least have engineering & financial constraints driving them. Like you can't mandate everything USB-C can provide 100W of power delivery, it's a combination of just not possible and just not economical (eg, your phone would never be a USB PD source as a result, which is a handy feature to have today for charging headphones & the like)

Also, those specs all have a degree of interoperability, which is a pretty significant difference. Like many thunderbolt 3 docks can actually also just run when connected to usb-c w/ dp-alt mode, although they lose out on the thunderbolt extras of course. Something that seems to be missing here.

Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#107
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it speaks extreme volumes that the "methods" of "did" and "com" were both proposed by no-name crypto organizations; "cosmos" seems to be proposed by one guy with a template website maybe unrelated to the relatively major Cosmos blockchain (they're fighting amongst themselves lol); "ens" was proposed by some organization with no website; "evan" was picked up by literally some guy named Evan. Its not just that…

When we were designing the EU DCC we explicitly choose not to go down the path of the then-nascent w3c verifiable credentials using DIDs. There was a hard lobby from the blockchain bullshitters but they couldn't explain things without a lot of hand waving and technobabble so :) There's a reason why our spec (EU-DCC) is a global standard: we build on proven technology, we're explicit, and we're not open to allow anyon…

Kudos, and thank you.

Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#108
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found it all pretty simple after looking at it briefly when I first learned about it. A DID URI is a URI with a 'method' and globally unique part: did:method:somegloballyuniqueid. The "did" part is literal; a standardized URI namespace. The method part is some symbol that specifies how the unique id resolves and its representation (JSON, whatever.) The method part is what this story is about; W3C has declined to en…

I’m genuinely curious as to why discussions on identity inevitably also involve claims about that identity. For authentication purposes, all that’s necessary is for a user to prove they are in control of an identifiers by presenting some credentials like a nonce encrypted with a private key. Yes, one can share data in-band during the authentication process (as part of the certificate, for example), but it’s not neces…

Because identity and credentials aren’t the same. A credential tells a system that “I have the correct secret” and an identity tells it “this is who I am”.

Who you are is important in understanding what you can and can’t do in a system. For example, an identity might say “this person is a US citizen” and then all systems that can’t allow US citizens will respond appropriately and block your access.

Credentials are often shared, identities should never be shared. Credentials will often grant you access to a specific identity.

The issue with DID is that there isn’t a way to differentiate whether a credential holder matches the identity those credentials grant access to. The nice thing is that it allows for a set of attestations to be associated with your identity that allow you to essentially be verified once instead of per-system. You could have one financial company go through the KYC process for you and others could leverage their attestations about who you are.

You also don’t have to give control over your identity to a third party like Google, Apple, Meta, or Microsoft. I appreciate that since I’m leaving the Apple ecosystem and have way too many accounts set up which use Apple for login. It’s not fun to try and change that and recover my access to those sites.

Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#109
Caveat: I know several people involved in the DID standards development and consider them friends.

Decentralized Identifiers (DIDs) are important because a decentralized global network with fully decentralized versions of things like Facebook, with users controlling their own data, may not be possible without them.

There is a lot in the DID specs. They are perhaps best viewed as an abstraction layer for decentralized authentication, authorization, rights management, and messaging. There are many ways of implementing these standards, and this is accomplished by allowing many different DID methods. Some methods, like 'peer', do not use public sources of truth like blockchains. Many of the various methods use some given blockchain as a public source of truth. Some use a distributed file system like IPFS. The abstraction in the DID specs should allow all of these methods to interoperate (e.g., have a IPFS DID document with a btcr controller, btcr being one of several DID methods using the Bitcoin blockchain).

DID methods are not a wild west however, despite the picture painted by some. There are registries for recognized DID methods that impose controls on DID method specs before they can be listed in the registry [1].

Also, I think any DID support will likely require a plugin mechanism. The app implements the DID abstraction layer and DID common functionality, then offloads DID method specific functionality to an available plugin for that method or signals an error if no plugin for that method is available. It is ironic to me that Mozilla raised the objection here, because in my mind the plugin system that made people aware of plugins is the Firefox plugin system.

[1] https://www.w3.org/TR/did-spec-registries/

Re: Mozilla and Google Objections Overruled on “Decentralized Identifiers” by W3C

#110

Something that should be a bit of a warning flag is that I have two decades of identity-related experience but I still have no idea what DID even is . For reference, I've worked with three vendors' implementations of LDAP, several versions of SAML, OAuth, JWT, Okta, Azure Active Directory, etc, etc... I've even deployed Smart Card authentication in the field several times. I literally have no idea, not a clue what DI…

The document "Use Cases and Requirements for Decentralized Identifiers" [1] lays out the following summary of what they are trying to achieve:

"1. there should be no central issuing agency;

2. the identifier should be inherently persistent, not requiring the continued operation of an underlying organization;

3. it should be possible to prove control of the identifier cryptographically;

4. it should be possible to discover metadata about the identifier."

Additional capabilities got tacked on during discussions, and I think are handled in different specs, such as DID-Messaging, but at it's core the above are the primary requirements.

[1] https://www.w3.org/TR/did-use-cases/

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