Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Forcing all of your code to be GPL is like saying “I am on a diet, so now I will force everyone else be on the same diet. Freedom!” Nobody is forcing anyone to use the code. If they chose to use it they have to abide by the licensing terms because that’s how it works. If the people laboring for free to produce this code don’t want it to be used in a proprietary application then tough luck, write the code yourself.…
> Nobody is forcing anyone to use the code. until the time comes when a tax department gets the funny idea to use it, and forced you to use it, or people with guns come to your door and haul you away in the morning. (edit: formatting)
Give up GitHub: The time has come
411–420 of 585 posts
Re: Give up GitHub: The time has come
#412This isn't very compelling to me. SourceForge went bad ... and everyone left. That doesn't seem like a bad thing and there's no reason for me to think any given site / service will or won't go bad too. I expect that for any number of reasons I might need to move from one site to the next. The rest too is kinda hollow to me. The fact that they're for profit doesn't upset me. I figured they wanted to make a profit when…
FOSS projects like the Linux kernel use the GPL license because the developers want their code to be free not just for themselves, but for everyone everywhere for all time. It's not acceptable terms for you to take their work and use it to build an alternate operating system that you aren't going to share. If this wasn't important to them they could have just published their code under MIT/BSD licenses.
If you were to build an AI that used the Linux source code to generate a "new" closed-source operating system, in a very real sense all you've done is invent a new way to plagiarize the Linux community's work so that you can weasel your way out of their license terms. Even if you got away with this in the courts, it's obviously very unethical.
What Copilot does is enable the mass plagiarizing of open source code from everyone all at once, mixed up together so that it's hard to know who the original authors were, and then pretend that somehow this makes it ethical.
Re: Give up GitHub: The time has come
#413> 1. What case law, if any, did you rely on in Microsoft & GitHub's public claim, stated by GitHub's (then) CEO, that: “(1) training ML systems on public data is fair use, (2) the output belongs to the operator, just like with a compiler”? In the interest of transparency and respect to the FOSS community, please also provide the community with your full legal analysis on why you believe that these statements are true.
I mean, I'd be floored if any corporate lawyer let anyone at [large company] answer this kind of question outside of an actual lawsuit. They are essentially asking the opposing team's lawyers to do all this work for them, for free. This is followed by an "obvious[ly]" correct (I'm being ironic) interpretation of the refusal to answer: that MS is wrong but just won't admit it. But go back and re-read the question. The question was architected to produce this impression if it wasn't answered. That's a sign of a bad faith question, rather than a question with intent to learn the answer.
> 2. If it is, as you claim, permissible to train the model (and allow users to generate code based on that model) on any code whatsoever and not be bound by any licensing terms, why did you choose to only train Copilot's model on FOSS? For example, why are your Microsoft Windows and Office codebases not in your training set?
Other commenters have discussed this one already. There is a perfectly reasonable and legitimate explanation here: The do not want to do anything that remotely risks exposing trade secrets, and that's a separate concern from potentially accidentally violating a license. Suppose the model was trained on all these public repos + MS's private repos. Someone else can come along and train their own model on the public code; now they have two code generators whose outputs can be compared to reveal secret information about MS's training set. This time, the article guesses well at the answer: MS cares more about itself than others. Sure. Why would it be expected not to?
> 3. Can you provide a list of licenses, including names of copyright holders and/or names of Git repositories, that were in the training set used for Copilot? If not, why are you withholding this information from the community?
I think this question is bad faith too. It starts by asking "can you". Then, if the answer is "no, we can't", reinterprets the answer as "no, we won't" ("withholding" is an intentional act). It is disingenuous to imply that someone who cannot do something is, therefore, intentionally refusing to do so. In the analysis of the lack of response, the article (finally) admits that it is speculating wildly, backpaddles on the implied claim that MS is refusing to provide this information, and instead takes a different approach: MS scientists can't answer because they are not good scientists. But wait, here's the kicker:
> ... so they don't actually know the answer to whose copyrights they infringed and when and how.
Busted! The authors have essentially demonstrated the question is in bad faith by suggesting that the answer to the question, "Whose data did you use?", is the same as the answer to the question, "Whose copyright did you violate?", which is a logical connection made possible only by the underlying presupposition that MS is totally incorrect in its assertion about fair use in question 1. The framing of all these questions suggests to me that the authors were already firmly convinced of their guesses as to the answers/non-answers _at the time of posing the questions_.
If they actually waited for a whole year expecting a response, that's on them. I'm with MS on the decision not to engage here, even if I share all these qualms about Copilot.
Re: Give up GitHub: The time has come
#414Earlier quoted context omitted.
That list is a perfect example why GitHub is so problematic. Forget Copilot. Even without that you’ve put all of those services in one centralized basket, fully controlled by a for-profit company (with proven track record of unethical behavior). And not only that, but this is true for the vast majority of FOSS projects!
I see your point. The disagreement I have is I would not at all consider copilot as putting MSFT into the evil empire category yet. While it was very unnerving for the ownership to change, MSFT has really had a pretty hands-off approach on Github. I touched on it, but I still see this for-profit model as being compatible with FOSS. Specifically, make it free to FOSS so that those professional software developers then…
(a) since it is proprietary, you can't see where their hands are
(b) the fact that they haven't done anything also means you have no signal of their intent once they do. Not doing anything would be the logical play for a period of time whether you had evil intent or not.
Re: Give up GitHub: The time has come
#415> twenty-one years ago, the most popular code hosting site, a fully Free and Open Source (FOSS) site called SourceForge, proprietarized all their code — never to make it FOSS again. Didn't SourceForge make its platform F/OSS again 11 years ago, under the name Allura? https://sourceforge.net/blog/new-projects-welcome-to-allura/ Looks like it ended up at the ASF: https://allura.apache.org/
Re: Give up GitHub: The time has come
#416As a leader of a FOSS project that is on github, and migrated off of sourceforge because SVN and email patches were not scaling - I'm a bit confused by this article. Co-pilot has issues, ergo github is going the way of sourceforge, and so now we must abandon github? Do I have that reasoning correct? We need to: - migrate the bug queue - have all links in commit history break - application integration with githib for…
That list is a perfect example why GitHub is so problematic. Forget Copilot. Even without that you’ve put all of those services in one centralized basket, fully controlled by a for-profit company (with proven track record of unethical behavior). And not only that, but this is true for the vast majority of FOSS projects!
This is only a serious problem if you are not paying them for it. The current situation is how 99% of thr world works everywhere.
Re: Give up GitHub: The time has come
#417Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perhaps because there is a (small) risk of leaking confidential information through its output. But that's not as damning as it sounds. First, we know Copilot, if given the right prompt and told to autocomplete repeatedly without any manual input, can regurgitate bits of code seen many times in many different repositories, like the famous Quake fast inverse square root function and the text of licenses. That doesn't…
> Perhaps because there is a (small) risk of leaking confidential information through its output. If Microsoft/Github ever made that argument, that also means that when Copilot is using GPL software as input, the output can only be released under the GPL.
Copyright licenses don't apply to small snippets, no matter if you think they do, and learning and applying other people's code isn't prohibited by the license, and thank god, can't be prohibited.
Re: Give up GitHub: The time has come
#418I think I’ve seen 3 articles about this in just the past week…
Re: Give up GitHub: The time has come
#419What Microsoft is doing with GitHub is gross. Like VSCode, it’s an example of exploiting our natural affinity towards convenience to lock ever-growing parts of the developer community to their services. There are great FOSS tools for hosting source code like https://gitea.io/en-us/ and https://codeberg.org/ . I’d put the work to self-host and even contribute to any of them.
This makes no sense. Our GitHub lock-in is due to the audience. If a FOSS project leaves, they lose the GitHub audience. It's a social network.
VSCode is absolutely nothing like that. You seem to be condemning Microsoft for making a really good product.
Is JetBrains also evil for their suite of amazing, convenient products?
Re: Give up GitHub: The time has come
#420Earlier quoted context omitted.
How is Boost different from something like 0-clause BSD?
I don't know what 0-clause BSD is. The Boost license is: Boost Software License - Version 1.0 - August 17th, 2003 Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person or organization obtaining a copy of the software and accompanying documentation covered by this license (the "Software") to use, reproduce, display, distribute, execute, and transmit the Software, and to prepare derivative works of the Software,…
Permission to use, copy, modify, and/or distribute this software for any
purpose with or without fee is hereby granted.
THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND THE AUTHOR DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES WITH
REGARD TO THIS SOFTWARE INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY
AND FITNESS. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, DIRECT,
INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER RESULTING FROM
LOSS OF USE, DATA OR PROFITS, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR
OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR
PERFORMANCE OF THIS SOFTWARE.