Live data from Hacker News

Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

science.org

71–80 of 318 posts

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Well of course it’s obvious that we’re not carnivorous our ancestors didn’t eat meat and always used to go to the pharmacy to get their iron and B vitamin supplements

Plenty of both iron and vitamin B in plant-based food.

You really believe we hunted big game so much? With what? Sticks and stones? How did we catch them with our weak legs? How the hell did we skin them or eat their raw flesh? Cooking wasn't a thing for a long time.

And why don't we eat the animal meat raw? Don't you love it when you see the dead, rotting carcas all open and blody?

I sure don't. And neither would you, unless you were starving in the middle of winter.

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#72

About ten years ago my former PI (second author in the below paper) did quite a job on this in Burkina Faso, analyzing the composition of the gut in children living outside cities, in cities, and a comparison with European children. Obligatory disclaimer: I was working in his laboratory at the time, but I wasn't involved in that research. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1005963107

How does one analyze the gut biome? I imagine it involves running poop through a machine - what kind of machine? I would love to learn more about the technical process.

The paper uses 16S rDNA sequencing, which is a bit old fashioned now but it was a good method when the paper was published. The steps basically involve:

1. Extract all DNA from poop, normally using a kit that basically makes DNA stick to tiny plastic beads. You wash the beads in a bunch of different chemical solutions to isolate DNA from the original sample and purify it. There are a lot of different methods to do this.

2. Amplify a small section of DNA that's universally unique to bacteria and archaea which is used as a barcode. This barcode has some areas that change a lot across different species and some areas that don't change much.

3. Sequence the amplified DNA. The DNA sequencer determines the sequence of nucleotides in each DNA amplicon (an amplicon is a piece amplified piece of DNA). An example DNA sequence is ACCTGGCT

3. The DNA sequencer produces millions of DNA sequences in parallel and stores them and some metadata (e.g. quality and confidence measurements) in text files

4. When this paper was published, a friendly bioinformatician would have taken the text file and clustered the different sequences. Sequences 97% similar were binned together as a rough approximation of a species. Different taxonomic levels have different cutoffs, but it's all quite vague and there are better methods now that involve denoising sequences from quality measurements (e.g. dada2 method)

5. A count for each different bin is generated, and "representative sequences" for each bin are matched against taxonomic databases to see what species are present

6. Normal ecological analysis is done on the count data to calculate alpha and beta diversity or do other types of analysis. Once you have counts, it doesn't matter that the data are from bacteria instead of sheep or penguins

Newer methods involve sequencing every single bit of DNA in a sample, not just a specific region. This is called metagenomics and it's very hard to do and requires very big computers and big DNA sequencers.

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#73
post #2

Could this explain trends like increasing food allergies in countries where more and more people are becoming urban dwellers?

There's a guy (Jasper Lawrence, who had a horrible allergy problem) had heard of a study where they were testing to see if allergies was related to parasites. He was rejected from the study, so, long story short, he ended up flying to northern Africa and walking around barefoot to get hookworm. He now monitors and manages his hookworm infection with low doses of anti-parasite medication, and he sells soil infected wi…

He originally posted his story on kuro5hin[1]. It's an interesting read. He was interested in the worm because, for its survival, it has evolved a mechanism to disable the host's immune system in a particular way that eliminates allergies. At the time he wrote that nobody knows how the worm does it. Now that we can do similar things with monoclonal antibodies, I wonder if the mechanism is similar.

[1] http://web.archive.org/web/20151205143301/http://www.kuro5hi...

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well of course it’s obvious that we’re not carnivorous our ancestors didn’t eat meat and always used to go to the pharmacy to get their iron and B vitamin supplements

Plenty of both iron and vitamin B in plant-based food. You really believe we hunted big game so much? With what? Sticks and stones? How did we catch them with our weak legs? How the hell did we skin them or eat their raw flesh? Cooking wasn't a thing for a long time. And why don't we eat the animal meat raw? Don't you love it when you see the dead, rotting carcas all open and blody? I sure don't. And neither would yo…

I don’t know I meet a lot of people that say that there is a lot of iron and B in plants but all the vegan I met working were always taking supplements, maybe if you tell me what are the plants with B12 and iron I can pass over the info next time I see one of them

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#75

It's the diet. City dwellers tend to eat a lot more unhealthy foods. They also eat a lot less vegetables, fruit and nuts than their rural country(wo)men. You want more microbes in your gut? Eat more plant-based food.

The study doesn't show this: it compares humans (who happen to live in cities) to primates (who definitely don't live in cities). It doesn't compare between human populations. Ironically, cities (particularly affluent ones, but in general) probably have better access to fresh and healthy produce than do medium or low-income rural areas. Some of that is supply and demand (the economics of moving bulk produce favor lar…

No post body was provided.

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#76
I'd be really curious where some of these wild microbes can be found so we can repopulate them.

Every time I brush my teeth, use dish washing liquid or really any man made substance with a lots of ingredients I also wonder if I'm accidentally killing off my skin/mouth/gut microbiomes. Not worried enough to only use water (not that tap water can be fully trusted either....)

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#77
post #2

Could this explain trends like increasing food allergies in countries where more and more people are becoming urban dwellers?

There's a guy (Jasper Lawrence, who had a horrible allergy problem) had heard of a study where they were testing to see if allergies was related to parasites. He was rejected from the study, so, long story short, he ended up flying to northern Africa and walking around barefoot to get hookworm. He now monitors and manages his hookworm infection with low doses of anti-parasite medication, and he sells soil infected wi…

Please, for the love of all that is good and holy, do not give yourself hookworms.

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#78
post #13
post #5

>people in U.S. cities...people in less developed parts of the world What about people in the US who are not in cities? That's the more interesting comparison to me. Why would that be left out?

I'm curious why that comparison is more interesting to you? I can see great value in having both data points when trying to formulate a hypothesis about what causes the decline in gut-microbes in us city folks, but I find it hard to think of a use-case for solely a urban/rural comparison without other context. (Update: I was thinking about this from a scientific perspective, ignoring the idea that people might be int…

Personal interest does not necessarily equal marginal utility.

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#79
post #2

Could this explain trends like increasing food allergies in countries where more and more people are becoming urban dwellers?

There's a guy (Jasper Lawrence, who had a horrible allergy problem) had heard of a study where they were testing to see if allergies was related to parasites. He was rejected from the study, so, long story short, he ended up flying to northern Africa and walking around barefoot to get hookworm. He now monitors and manages his hookworm infection with low doses of anti-parasite medication, and he sells soil infected wi…

I can only imagine how desperate he must have been. Truly debilitating levels of allergy.

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of both iron and vitamin B in plant-based food. You really believe we hunted big game so much? With what? Sticks and stones? How did we catch them with our weak legs? How the hell did we skin them or eat their raw flesh? Cooking wasn't a thing for a long time. And why don't we eat the animal meat raw? Don't you love it when you see the dead, rotting carcas all open and blody? I sure don't. And neither would yo…

I don’t know I meet a lot of people that say that there is a lot of iron and B in plants but all the vegan I met working were always taking supplements, maybe if you tell me what are the plants with B12 and iron I can pass over the info next time I see one of them

There is abundance of iron in spinach, nettle and other similar plants.

For the b12 needs, eat some algae or even dirt. Yes, dirt. Plenty of dirt on a plant's root, which ancient humans ate like no tomorrow.

Post reply on HN