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Why I’m Cryptophobic

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171–180 of 455 posts

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>economies can crash. Gold can not, thus is it valuable. The thing about money is that it is a technology. But unlike other technologies, such as an electric toothbrush, for instance, it has an additional quirk: without belief, it doesn't work. Regardless of whether or not I believe in electricity, an electric tooth brush turns on and off; if the participants in an economy don't have faith in the economy, the economy…

>Gold is like an old god: its faith has a lot of coinage. However, its rule is not necessarily omnipresent. Very nice point, you're not wrong. That being said: >we are in a post-nuclear apocalypse. I have a small trading post and a can of beans; you have a solid gold coin. Challenge: convince me why I should take the coin. Because it has properties that qualify it as a method of exchange (portability, provable chemic…

As an intermediary, currency requires a minimum amount of social relations. Its value, if it can be said to have one, lies in its use as an indirect measure of the degree of faith in a particular set of social constructs.

The reason I use the post-apocalyptic scenario is exactly because of this rupture of social relations. It is not the ghost of the previous civilization trying to reconstitute itself. It is a place in a wilderness onto which people might stumble. (Admittedly, this might not be communicated well and too informed by my early secondary consumption of old western movies.)

Without this broader social context, the concept of trade becomes purely localized. My needs are not serviced by an explicit diffuse network which is conceptualized as an aspect not just of society but constitutive of reality. Operating on a faith, we take the conceptualization as reality and can accept, in our lives now, intermediary exchange: I firmly believe that by accepting an electronic transfer to my bank, I will be able to buy sweet and salty food that is engineered to appeal to my dietary obsessions as bequeathed by a combination of evolution and social conditioning.

In the midst of such a thought experiment, however, I am not guaranteed to encounter another haggard individual in this hypothesized godforsaken world for a very long time. Neither am I guaranteed that any individual I meet will have such social relations as to value such an intermediary, either.

Intermediary exchange is only viable once the pool of social relations grows beyond a certain bounds.

The function of my acceptance of any system is the fulfillment of my needs, to some degree. In such a scenario, the only way those needs can be serviced is an equivalence of exchange. In this case, food is required for immediate survival, the tools of procuring such, and shelter, etc. Intermediaries, in such a scenario, provide no guarantee to provide such. So such must be acquired directly. I can eat beans. To take the gold assumes, incorrectly, I can obtain another can or equivalent. That incorrect assumption is a holdover from the fundamental and all-pervasive faith we are at present steeped in and that must be maintained for our reality to function.

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the same irrevocability is now what makes me deeply concerned. Strange hang-up to have. Irrevocability is not a trait that is fundamental to blockchain applications. If the application is smart-contract based, irrevocability is a choice at the source code level. Just because one transaction in a block is irrevocable doesn't mean that another transaction in a future block can't undo whatever arbitrary state chan…

The outcomes of malfunctioning "smart contracts" are irrevocable.

Wrong. Smart contracts can be updated. If they are deployed with the ability to update, any outcome can be revoked. It is as simple as adding a new function.

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#173

There needs to be some basic economics here.. Money has value because of the value of the economic transactions in which its conducted. Government-backed currencies are forced to have value in the sense they force people to use it for their taxes. The US, additionally, forces the world to use it for oil trades. Value is in those economic transactions. A currency is just a "liquifying" of that value, to make it easier…

> For BTC (or any coin) to have any value, it needs actual economic transactions to be conducted in it. If there aren't any, its value is smoke-and-mirrors; its not real. Not quite - if someone, anyone, wants something that someone else has, they're prepared to buy it. That's the price. You might say tulips are valueless, but that wasn't the case when people wanted them - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania I'm…

Answering the question "why does Y have value X" with "because people/someone are/is willing to buy Y at price X" is technically correct but a cop-out. When people ask why something has value, they are typically asking why someone is willing to give money for it, what's the motivation. And the reason why people are willing to pay for something can be very relevant, especially if you want to figure out whether something will rise in value or collapse.

There are many reasons to want something, but broadly you can argue that you either want something because you believe owning the thing will make your life better in some way (food, housing, transportation, ...); or you can want something because you think someone else will pay more for it later down the line, in which case the value of the thing is entirely speculative to you.

Some things are not entirely one or the other. People wanted tulips because they are pretty. Eventually they became a status symbol, demand grew faster than supply, and quickly people started buying tulips not because they wanted them, but because someone else might pay more later. So tulips became a speculative bubble, which eventually collapsed.

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in the very past everyone was a merchant and they sold their goods/services In the past nearly everyone was a serf and they provided their goods/services to their lieges in exchange for basic needs like having someplace to live. In the present it's pretty much the same thing, except with us serfs being paid wages (which we then end up spending most of as rent and taxes) and serving multiple lieges.

I normally push back at calling consumer capitalism "freedom", but the freedom to leave your employment is a huge one and the serfs didn't have that. The whole idea of just being able to pick up and move somewhere would be alien to most historical peasants.

That's part of what I'm getting at with the "multiple lieges" bit. Feudal lordship and fealty are more fungible now than they were centuries ago, but the fundamental power dynamic remains; being able to swap out lords ostensibly at will is one of those "illusion of freedom" things that helps us feel slightly less bad about our exploitation.

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Very few economic transactions are denominated in gold, either as a medium of exchange or a unit of account. That doesn't mean that gold isn't a viable medium of exchange - it obviously is, just go to a market of your choice and trade it for goods. In fact, it's the single most viable medium of exchange, globally, since currencies are tied to economies, and economies can crash. Gold can not, thus is it valuable.

>economies can crash. Gold can not, thus is it valuable. The thing about money is that it is a technology. But unlike other technologies, such as an electric toothbrush, for instance, it has an additional quirk: without belief, it doesn't work. Regardless of whether or not I believe in electricity, an electric tooth brush turns on and off; if the participants in an economy don't have faith in the economy, the economy…

More likely, in North America at least, we would have an accepted exchange rate for 9mm and 5.56 and I'd need more than a can of beans for one cartridge.

I unironically suggest having a box or two as a hedge, no associated weapon needed.

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#176
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't follow the last statement. If a cryptocurrency was used for decentralized buying and selling, folks were not using it for speculation, and thus it became a stable currency would it not flourish?

The demand for a currency fluctuates according to various factors, therefore if the supply remains fixed its price will not be stable.

For argument sake, lets say it was as stable as the price of Silver...

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#177
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don’t buy the old taxes-make-the-money-work chestnut. Far too many counterexamples.

To me, the stronger government intervention is taxing the use of cryptocurrencies (or pretty much anything except dollars in the US) when buying something with it. There is a capital gains tax event that happens if you buy something with BTC, for example. So you have to pay extra to use non-dollars for transactions but also a regular person's taxes would become extremely complicated if they used non-dollars for all t…

Excellent point. This also lends to it being easier for US tax subjects to use the dollar as a unit of account and ignore its (small, but not insignificant and always trending downward) value changes. I think a crypto wallet app that optimized for this problem would be super valuable, e.g. making doing taxes of these transactions seamless, and suggesting paying using a currency that is optimal for taxes (e.g. realizing a loss if that is possible, because then your purchase would come with a tax credit.) There are also efforts by legislators to enable de minimis exemptions for crypto transactions (taxes waived if the transaction size is sufficiently small)

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right - as a commenter on a technical forum - how much overlap do you think there is between yourself and the age/infosec knowledge/technical savvy of the type of person who pays for PHub in 2022?

Doesn't really make much of a difference; "only give your banking info to those you highly trust and only if it's absolutely necessary" has been common sense for longer than the Internet has existed.

you completely ignored the question lol

we know that you know, and that we know, but the comment was saying that most people don't.

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#179

There needs to be some basic economics here.. Money has value because of the value of the economic transactions in which its conducted. Government-backed currencies are forced to have value in the sense they force people to use it for their taxes. The US, additionally, forces the world to use it for oil trades. Value is in those economic transactions. A currency is just a "liquifying" of that value, to make it easier…

> For BTC (or any coin) to have any value, it needs actual economic transactions to be conducted in it. If there aren't any, its value is smoke-and-mirrors; its not real. Not quite - if someone, anyone, wants something that someone else has, they're prepared to buy it. That's the price. You might say tulips are valueless, but that wasn't the case when people wanted them - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania I'm…

It’s a unique move to non-ironically point out btc has value because tulips once had value, aka one of the most notorious bubbles of all time. Most people pointing to the tulip bubble comparing Bitcoin are giving an example of why Bitcoin is misguided. This is the first time I’ve seen someone say Bitcoin is like tulips thus it has value.

Re: Why I’m Cryptophobic

#180

There needs to be some basic economics here.. Money has value because of the value of the economic transactions in which its conducted. Government-backed currencies are forced to have value in the sense they force people to use it for their taxes. The US, additionally, forces the world to use it for oil trades. Value is in those economic transactions. A currency is just a "liquifying" of that value, to make it easier…

> For BTC (or any coin) to have any value, it needs actual economic transactions to be conducted in it. If there aren't any, its value is smoke-and-mirrors; its not real. Not quite - if someone, anyone, wants something that someone else has, they're prepared to buy it. That's the price. You might say tulips are valueless, but that wasn't the case when people wanted them - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania I'm…

Here's the interesting thing about tulips: after the bubble popped, bulbs recovered to a stable and profitable price, and the Dutch have been exporting them in great numbers ever since. Tulip mania was a resounding success and an enduring source of wealth for the Netherlands.

No direct analogy intended but it's an important historical fact. A lot of money was made on the South Seas as well.

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