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Bitcoin is the only coin the SEC Chair will call a commodity

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Re: Bitcoin is the only coin the SEC Chair will call a commodity

#161

Post by postalrat »

eric_cc wrote: post #106
hnthrow1010 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that Bitcoin has no leaders is a big lie that these regulators should be able to see through. You can take look at any of the well-known whales to see obvious evidence against that claim. They make the claim because it allows them to maintain plausible deniability while manipulating the market as much as they possibly can. I wouldn't trust anyone in finance who says they're not doing managerial work and dire…

Can you give a good example of how one of bitcoin’s “managers” changed bitcoin recently?

When bitcoin and bitcoin split. Technically bitcoin cash should be considered classic bitcoin and the commodity.

The "managers" were basically able to create a new crypto and give it the bitcoin name.

Re: Bitcoin is the only coin the SEC Chair will call a commodity

#162

Post by sshine »

etherael wrote: post #133
majinuub wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Project direction controlled entirely by core devs and the centralised exchanges that bless their output as "bitcoin" regardless of the fact it directly contradicts the original consensus mechanism for the project and the changes implemented by said devs fundamentally broke the utility of the project. Core devs and exchanges do not entirely control the project direction. Non-backwards compatible changes cannot be m…

I am aware of the official cover story. You appear to be unaware that it is a lie. Look up the historical record. By what metric was the BTC chain allocated to the present by bitfinex? I'll give you a hint, hash power not only had nothing to do with it, it was explicitly said that it would be ignored in the announcement. And reality flies in the face of what you just claimed, node operators had nothing to do with the…

> it was explicitly said that it would be ignored in the announcement

Can you elaborate or give references to how Bitfinex controls the Bitcoin blockchain in such a way that the gridlock between miners and core devs isn't what keeps Bitcoin conservative?

How is the network rigged in such a way that node operators have nothing to say? You're not referring to miner centralisation?

Re: Bitcoin is the only coin the SEC Chair will call a commodity

#163

Post by kinakomochidayo »

thinkmassive wrote: post #156
DennisP wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin has a single popular client. There are people who work on that client. Ethereum has five execution clients, developed by independent teams, and another five proof-of-stake clients, also developed by independent teams, plus an open community of researchers where anyone can participate. The Ethereum Foundation funds some of this, but not all of it. If the various teams don't agree to do something, it won't get…

Actively used alternative implementations: https://github.com/btcsuite/btcd https://bitcoin-s.org/ https://bcoin.io/ https://bitcore.io/ https://bitcoindevkit.org/

None of these clients will likely ever compete with Bitcoin Core.

https://coin.dance/nodes

Re: Bitcoin is the only coin the SEC Chair will call a commodity

#164

Post by [deleted] »

thinkmassive wrote: post #156
DennisP wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin has a single popular client. There are people who work on that client. Ethereum has five execution clients, developed by independent teams, and another five proof-of-stake clients, also developed by independent teams, plus an open community of researchers where anyone can participate. The Ethereum Foundation funds some of this, but not all of it. If the various teams don't agree to do something, it won't get…

Actively used alternative implementations: https://github.com/btcsuite/btcd https://bitcoin-s.org/ https://bcoin.io/ https://bitcore.io/ https://bitcoindevkit.org/

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin is the only coin the SEC Chair will call a commodity

#165

Post by sshine »

omginternets wrote: post #158
smohnot wrote: post #11

He said BTC was the only cryptocurrency he was comfortable saying was a commodity, while many were securities it didn't address explicitly what all others were “That’s the only one I’m going to say because I’m not going to talk about any one of these tokens” https://twitter.com/SBF_FTX/status/1541565079992369155?s=20&...

What’s the difference between a security and a commodity? And what does this distinction change for the SEC?

> What’s the difference between a security and a commodity?

Securities: Stocks and Bonds

Commodities: Metals, Grains, and Oil

A commodity's defining feature is its interchangeability. One unit is essentially the same as another unit. To an orange juice company oranges are oranges, to an apple juice company apples are apples, and to an oil refinery one barrel of oil is a lot like any other barrel of oil. Commodities must meet certain minimum quality standards and markets do distinguish between different types of the same commodity. But for the most part it's about quantity.

https://www.findlaw.com/consumer/securities-law/securities-v...

A commodity is a basic good used in commerce that is interchangeable with other goods of the same type. Commodities are most often used as inputs in the production of other goods or services. The quality of a given commodity may differ slightly, but it is essentially uniform across producers.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/commodity.asp

> And what does this distinction change for the SEC?

Good question.

This thread is full of suggestions. I couldn’t find a truly compelling one except that Bitcoin could fit the description of a commodity.

Re: Bitcoin is the only coin the SEC Chair will call a commodity

#166

Post by daniel-cussen »

eternauta3k wrote: post #45
daniel-cussen wrote: post #27

I agree with this. I have said it's the only crypto worth participating in because it's the only crypto that originated for idealistic reasons. In that capacity it is similar to gold, which in the Golden Age (something everybody talked about in Antiquity and I decided to believe, but I've never encountered anybody else believing in) was openly swapped around as little inventions (you can make all kinds of shit with g…

It's ironic for a comment about Bitcoin to call people assholes for hoarding. Cryptocurrency is all about making a system which works because people act in their self-interest. If they wanted people to use it and not hoard it, they should've made it easier to spend, or harder to hoard, i.e. inflationary.

Hoarding is about intent, different from saving. Acaparar in Spanish. To take up all there is for yourself, so others have nothing and suffer in need. Whereas saving is sacrifice, so someday there can be something to give in an exceptional situation. Or in an exceptional opportunity, as in investment, but this is secondary, because the purpose of this secondary interpretation is subjugated to the primary interpretation, to eg invest to get a good return to at some point rescue an orphaned grandchild.

Re: Bitcoin is the only coin the SEC Chair will call a commodity

#167

Post by empraptor »

erdewit wrote: post #79
hnthrow1010 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that Bitcoin has no leaders is a big lie that these regulators should be able to see through. You can take look at any of the well-known whales to see obvious evidence against that claim. They make the claim because it allows them to maintain plausible deniability while manipulating the market as much as they possibly can. I wouldn't trust anyone in finance who says they're not doing managerial work and dire…

What makes Bitcoin a commodity is that nobody can issue more Bitcoin, other then from mining, just like with physical commodities. The market can still be manipulated by the big players but that is besides the point. When more of an asset can be issued (created from thin air) then it is a security.

i'm not sure why people keep thinking that there is a hard limit to number of bitcoins that can be mined when the network can be updated to allow more coins to be mined.

Re: Bitcoin is the only coin the SEC Chair will call a commodity

#168

Post by daniel-cussen »

Aaronstotle wrote: post #41
daniel-cussen wrote: post #27

I agree with this. I have said it's the only crypto worth participating in because it's the only crypto that originated for idealistic reasons. In that capacity it is similar to gold, which in the Golden Age (something everybody talked about in Antiquity and I decided to believe, but I've never encountered anybody else believing in) was openly swapped around as little inventions (you can make all kinds of shit with g…

Monero had no pre-mine either, and addresses the bitcoin privacy gaps. Most cryptos are obviously get rich quick schemes, I don't think it means you should immediately discard every other token.

Well that speaks well of Monero, perhaps that is exceptional, apparently not...

I was wrong in discarding them. I would, in addition to apologizing, salvage my claim in the following terms: bitcoin is the gold standard, the first and foremost, just as every metal is unique and gold is gold and nothing else identical. But there can also be silver, and platinum, and rhenium, and ruthenium, and rhodium, and copper, and many others. Bitcoin was the first, and is unique, but is not the last.

Re: Bitcoin is the only coin the SEC Chair will call a commodity

#169

Post by unicornmama »

ForHackernews wrote: post #150
ianferrel wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under US law (Howey test) a security is something that 1. You invest money in 2. Along with others 3. With the expectation of profit 4. Derived from the efforts of others ETA: (the others in #2 need not be the same others in #4)

Under this definition, surely all cryptocurrencies fail test #4. Everyone is going to get rich and nobody is going to have to put in any effort, just HODL. WAGMI! To the moon!

There are some projects run by corporations who create and sell tokens, and whose founders have made claims promising returns derived from ongoing operations and investments.

Re: Bitcoin is the only coin the SEC Chair will call a commodity

#170

Post by JumpCrisscross »

nathias wrote: post #125
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they can't make new categories for new tech and have to shoehorn it into the old Nobody is doing that. For all the new techiness of crypto, its popular failure modes of pumps and dumps, rug pulls and promoters lying through their teeth is identical to the pre-Securities Act securities landscape. So for those narrow problems these proven solutions should work.

But as we can see from anything else, X when digital becomes completely different, it becomes at the same time possible to scale it, to automate it and it becomes international. I fear regulatory capture that will capture all the innovation and profits for US VCs (again).

Money is already digital, highly automated and internationally scaled. The American payments/settlement system is arguably more decentralised than blockchains. Crypto brings unique attributes to the table. But being digital, automatable and international aren’t major differentiators.

To the degree we’re seeing a persistent class of winners in crypto, it’s not users. And it’s not VCs. It’s Wall Street. Because this is an old, dirty game. Some folks just gave it a new paint job.

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