Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad • Hacker News Board

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#81

Post by andymoe » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 2:39 PM UTC

I understand that people are worried that Apple will abuse their power and be unreasonable about granting exceptions but honestly after building many apps on the outside and seeing how things work from the inside for a year (during Lion dev) I don't think that will necessarily be the case.

Sandboxing will make OS X more secure, and that's a good thing, especially as the OS X install base pushes towards the 15% range and beyond providing a juicy target for our friends on the dark side.

Let's hope I'm right and Apple plays fair because I would like the two App Stores to keep paying my bills while there are still people who are wrong on the Internet.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#82

Post by gcv » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 2:44 PM UTC

guard-of-terra wrote: post #57

Don't they distribute xcode via appstore? it obviously dould not fit in the sandbox. If they make it an exception, can't they be hammered for monopolizing the development tools in the app store for themself?

Apple distributes the Xcode installer through the App Store. Normal App Store restrictions don't apply.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#83

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 2:47 PM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #70

One problem with sandboxing is that it stifles innovation. Many of the innovations in computers (dynamic libraries, drivers, plugins, screen grabbing, password managers, etc) came from being able to do anything on your computer. Once the sandbox lockdown is complete, you won't be able to invent new techniques that require entitlements the gatekeeper hasn't thought of already. The sandbox marks the end of the open sys…

[deleted]

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#84

Post by wanorris » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 2:47 PM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #70

One problem with sandboxing is that it stifles innovation. Many of the innovations in computers (dynamic libraries, drivers, plugins, screen grabbing, password managers, etc) came from being able to do anything on your computer. Once the sandbox lockdown is complete, you won't be able to invent new techniques that require entitlements the gatekeeper hasn't thought of already. The sandbox marks the end of the open sys…

> The sandbox marks the end of the open system.

The existence of the sandbox doesn't. Not yet. As long as there's sideloading, it's still an open system.

I'm very happy with my ability to sideload apps on Android, and it keeps the platform from being too locked down. I can install a whole alternate app store from Amazon that way if I want -- in fact, it would be great if Cydia or someone released an open app store for OS X apps that don't meet Apple's criteria. You wouldn't have to jailbreak your computer to use that app store or any of its apps.

That's the barometer for when Apple goes to far. It's possible that day will come -- when they've gotten this far, it would no longer be shocking to see them go the rest of the way. But until they take that final step, OS X is still an open system.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#85

Post by saturdaysaint » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 2:52 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #75

saturdaysaint wrote: post #50

This article mostly seems to ignore the fact that you can still distribute apps outside of the App Store. In fact, considering the falling costs of hosting and easy access to marketing tools (look at the quality of the website for any Mac App), it's probably never been easier. For pro apps with dedicated audiences (see: Adobe, Ableton, Avid, Nuance) which is just about anything with a plugin architecture, the App Sto…

> you can still distribute I think "still" is the important word here.

Nope. The gadget-oriented press misses it completely, but Apple's history of catering to creative professionals and media industries goes just as deep as any of their control freak tendencies. Coming straight from Jobs, the purpose of these computers was to serve the arts. They're deeply attuned to the technical requirements (eg plugins) for creative software as well as to what creative pros of all stripes are using. Another example: part of the reason that iOS has had a lot of cool audio apps from the beginning is that low-latency audio performance is practically a core feature of OSX.

Mark my words: Apple will never make a change to OSX that will keep Illustrator, Pro Tools, or Avid off of the platform for a second.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#86

Post by amartya916 » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 2:52 PM UTC

It seems that the sandbox may allow for easier iCloud syncing. Since even Apple's apps like Pages, Keynote etc. cannot sync data to iCloud, it seems like an obvious feature to implement. I hope they allow App store curated 3rd party apps iCloud access as well.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#87

Post by recoiledsnake » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 3:03 PM UTC

saturdaysaint wrote: post #50

This article mostly seems to ignore the fact that you can still distribute apps outside of the App Store. In fact, considering the falling costs of hosting and easy access to marketing tools (look at the quality of the website for any Mac App), it's probably never been easier. For pro apps with dedicated audiences (see: Adobe, Ableton, Avid, Nuance) which is just about anything with a plugin architecture, the App Sto…

>This article mostly seems to ignore the fact that you can still distribute apps outside of the App Store.

Sure, but when Apple starts claiming and advertising that all Mac Store apps are secure(indirectly implying that external apps are not or may not be), external apps will have a much harder time appealing to the casual crowd, and for some apps living on thin margins, might be a death knell as more and more Macs get into the hands of casual users. The mid level apps between the big pro apps and the iOS-like apps will get really squeezed with this if they need non-sandboxed functionality and will be forced to conform or stop development in order to eke out a profit.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#88

Post by recoiledsnake » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 3:05 PM UTC

dpark wrote: post #80

guygurari wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple has already demonstrated several times over that the professional market isn't really of much interest to them anymore. There is one group of professionals Apple cannot do without: developers. One of the main appeals of both iOS and the Mac is the availability of exclusive, high-quality apps. I expect that limiting all app distribution to the Mac App Store will send developers running to other platforms. A pl…

> I expect that limiting all app distribution to the Mac App Store will send developers running to other platforms. Just like it did for iOS?

There wasn't a wide variety and large number of native software titles written for iOS before the App Store.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#89

Post by LaGrange » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 3:08 PM UTC

statictype wrote: post #59

marquis wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this happens they will effectively kill off a huge number of professional services, especially in the media industry. I'm not looking forward to a future where I have to look to Windows or Unix as my main development platform.

they will effectively kill off a huge number of professional services, especially in the media industry. Apple has already demonstrated several times over that the professional market isn't really of much interest to them anymore. Witness the disaster of Final Cut Pro X and the gradual phasing out of the Mac Pro hardware line. Apple's focus is squarely on the consumer market. Though it may seem unlikely today that th…

I wouldn't expect Apple to care about any single specific professional niche (maybe except application developers), so keeping any sort of professional software in-house might be even a distraction.

But Apple still depends on professionals-as-a-whole — once you add up graphic designers, architects, movie professionals and all others you get quite a lot of people who probably have enough money to buy fancy computers, tablets and phones.

As an added benefit, I would sorta-expect the professional market to have significant impact on consumer market — e.g. people's influence on family purchases, brand perception, recommendations.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#90

Post by ootachi » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 3:10 PM UTC

dmbaggett wrote: post #48

This is all so well-played by Apple: evolve ever more locked down systems in seemingly consumer-friendly ways. Once consumers forget they can even install their own applications (except through the app store), OS X distribution will be just as heavily moderated by Apple as iOS distribution. Expect Apple, Microsoft, and Google to exert ever more control over distribution. The software industry is evolving into the "st…

"Will users forget they can just type a URL in, and instead install everything through their friendly neighborhood web app store? (Don't laugh.)"

Who's laughing? All but two of the Web browser manufacturers (Opera and Mozilla, both of which are losing market share) seem to have vested interests in doing exactly this.