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What happened to CouchDB's popularity?

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Re: What happened to CouchDB's popularity?

#71

CouchOne abandoned any sort of marketing effort around CouchDB long before they got acquired by Membase. Since then, they have focused their attention solely on marketing the Couchbase brand, with close to zero time spent evangelizing Apache CouchDB. The other CouchDB “vendor”, Cloudant (who I work for) never had much of a marketing budget, so we spent no time marketing CouchDB either (we focused on building and mark…

This was a good analysis of why the prominent CouchDB companies didn't spent time/money evangelizing the project but it didn't cover the dramatic difference w/ how 10gen handles MongoDB.

10gen spends all their time and money marketing MongoDB. They appear to spend more marketing it than on engineering it. They can afford to do this because their "product" is MongoDB and not an alternative MongoDB based product like the prominent CouchDB companies.

Very little attention is paid to the fact that MongoDB is AGPL and that they are one of the first companies to bring the extortionware business model of the GPL to software as a service via AGPL.

http://www.mongodb.org/display/DOCS/Licensing http://www.10gen.com/commercial-licenses

Re: What happened to CouchDB's popularity?

#72
post #65
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

caught acknowledging instant classic.

> caught acknowledging instant classic. Those that can, comment, those that have nothing to say, make fun of those who speak English as a third language. http://blog.mongodb.org/post/381927266/what-about-durability Feb, 2010 "We get lots of questions about why MongoDB doesn’t have full single server durability, ...there are some very practical reasons why we think single server durability is overvalued" http://www.mo…

A moot point since single server durability is enabled by default in Mongo now, actually from the 1.8 stable (currently at 2.0 stable)

Re: What happened to CouchDB's popularity?

#73
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The futon UI is a pain to use. Interesting I had quite the opposite experience. It found it quite a bit better than any other NoSQL database UIs. Someone even copied it for MongoDB and stuck it on top of it. Why do you think it was pain? And what NoSQL DB UIs have you found to be better and why?

Things like adding users, and restricting a database to particular users, was a nightmare to figure out. When trying to enter a view, you need to quote and escape your code and put it all on one line. It's really bad, no novice would even know how to do this properly. I had to write my own little slash/escape tool to do it right.

There's a dedicated view editor that provides standard textareas for editing map and reduce view functions, with a set of results shown below.

Once you've clicked into a database in Futon, choose a view to inspect/edit using the dropdown in the upper-right. Couldn't be easier, really.

Re: What happened to CouchDB's popularity?

#74
post #72
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> caught acknowledging instant classic. Those that can, comment, those that have nothing to say, make fun of those who speak English as a third language. http://blog.mongodb.org/post/381927266/what-about-durability Feb, 2010 "We get lots of questions about why MongoDB doesn’t have full single server durability, ...there are some very practical reasons why we think single server durability is overvalued" http://www.mo…

A moot point since single server durability is enabled by default in Mongo now, actually from the 1.8 stable (currently at 2.0 stable)

Not moot for someone who already chose a different product because of that. These decision are extrapolated and people infer the quality and seriousness of engineering from such decisions. Those, in my opinion, matter more than marketing or flashy websites.

Re: What happened to CouchDB's popularity?

#75
The first thing I did on that page was add "membase" to the list. If one adds the "couchdb" and "membase" lines, the result almost - no, not quite - keeps up with the MongoDB line. This is compatible with my first thought that people have had trouble keeping up with Couch's continual changes in name and direction. Relatedly, Couch* (the company) has often failed to provide a comprehensive solution, requiring users to grab other pieces from other places - e.g. BigCouch from Cloudant or Futon from the Apache project. Contrast with 10gen/MongoDB: consistent name, consistent direction, single source for the whole solution including client drivers.

There are other factors as well. I've heard some people say that Couch* is a serious memory hog. Others have complained about dependencies. The REST interface appeals to some, but others would prefer a more binary-oriented protocol. The relentless positioning vs. MongoDB, and particularly some of the FUD being slung by Couch* advocates (hi rdtsc) is generating a bit of a backlash as well. For all I know some of these issues no longer exist, perhaps some never existed, but without a focused effort to deal with these impressions they remain liabilities. Couch* comes across not only as developer-oriented, but oriented toward a particular kind of developer.

Note that none of these factors relate to the technical quality of the two products. I think Couch's general distribution/replication model is fundamentally a better one than Mongo's, though I think Mongo wins by having real ad-hoc queries instead of requiring the moral equivalent of stored procedures. I thought little of Mongo's answers regarding durability and replication (and TBH still don't think they're at the level they should be) but I could see that progress was being made and I have enough of a long-term perspective not to get all perma-caremad about it. In the end, I think Couch* has been held back a bit not by its technology but by all the "other stuff" that goes into making a project or company successful.

Re: What happened to CouchDB's popularity?

#76
post #74
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A moot point since single server durability is enabled by default in Mongo now, actually from the 1.8 stable (currently at 2.0 stable)

Not moot for someone who already chose a different product because of that. These decision are extrapolated and people infer the quality and seriousness of engineering from such decisions. Those, in my opinion, matter more than marketing or flashy websites.

That's a fair point, but the product as it stands is very usable for me. Even if they never updated it, I would keep this build as something that is more than adequate for what it does.

Re: What happened to CouchDB's popularity?

#77
post #12

A lot of this is the result of the confusion in the community, there is the CouchDB Apache project, then the CouchBase work and their own "Single Server" releases that don't necessarily map 1:1 to the Apache versions. Then there is the CouchBase "Couch Server" offering which, from what little I can tell, is membase + CouchDB and their CouchDB build, according to their docs, isn't 100% 1:1 with the Apache CouchDB buil…

I have to agree. Not long ago, the biggest advantage of CouchDB for those new to NoSQL were its simplicity and "relax". Lately it really has disappeared into IBM-esque product combination offerings.

I truly hope they sort it out though, since CouchDB itself is great technology.

Re: What happened to CouchDB's popularity?

#79
post #77
post #12

A lot of this is the result of the confusion in the community, there is the CouchDB Apache project, then the CouchBase work and their own "Single Server" releases that don't necessarily map 1:1 to the Apache versions. Then there is the CouchBase "Couch Server" offering which, from what little I can tell, is membase + CouchDB and their CouchDB build, according to their docs, isn't 100% 1:1 with the Apache CouchDB buil…

I have to agree. Not long ago, the biggest advantage of CouchDB for those new to NoSQL were its simplicity and "relax". Lately it really has disappeared into IBM-esque product combination offerings. I truly hope they sort it out though, since CouchDB itself is great technology.

I think you nailed it with the IBM analogy.
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