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Development Environments

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Re: Development Environments

#31

Post by eklavya »

dhzhzjsbevs wrote: post #20
invalidname wrote: post #2

I've been programming since well before we had IDEs... I love them. Proper modern IDEs provide a level of insight and tooling that the anti-IDE crowd just don't get. A couple of decades ago they were problematic. But today's unified toolchains and improvements made them far better. The one semi legitimate problem people have is performance. I run on an M1 Max with 64gb of RAM and gave a lot of RAM to IntelliJ (Ultima…

Yea but you only need all that junk because you use Java. The rest of us just don't have that many files to refactor when we change things. I don't really hate ide's, I get the appeal, and sometimes it works out useful. It's just that most of the time it comes back to enterprisey software being the source of your problems, not the lack of features in your editor.

Calling IntelliJ and Java junk is probably an indication that you are inhibiting your professional growth.

Re: Development Environments

#32

Post by a-dub »

invalidname wrote: post #2

I've been programming since well before we had IDEs... I love them. Proper modern IDEs provide a level of insight and tooling that the anti-IDE crowd just don't get. A couple of decades ago they were problematic. But today's unified toolchains and improvements made them far better. The one semi legitimate problem people have is performance. I run on an M1 Max with 64gb of RAM and gave a lot of RAM to IntelliJ (Ultima…

the problem i have with ides is that you never know when some boss or it department will stand in the way of your favorite being available.

from open source work at home to the most paranoid of high security environments, vim tends to be there pretty reliably.

Re: Development Environments

#33

Post by invalidname »

a-dub wrote: post #32
invalidname wrote: post #2

I've been programming since well before we had IDEs... I love them. Proper modern IDEs provide a level of insight and tooling that the anti-IDE crowd just don't get. A couple of decades ago they were problematic. But today's unified toolchains and improvements made them far better. The one semi legitimate problem people have is performance. I run on an M1 Max with 64gb of RAM and gave a lot of RAM to IntelliJ (Ultima…

the problem i have with ides is that you never know when some boss or it department will stand in the way of your favorite being available. from open source work at home to the most paranoid of high security environments, vim tends to be there pretty reliably.

This is like saying the problem with using my hands is that I never know when my next job will be a football (soccer) player.

I get that it's a muscle you need to practice. But limiting yourself to fit a potential restriction makes no sense.

Re: Development Environments

#34

Post by sirsinsalot »

Many people seem to think using a commercial proprietary IDE means you somehow forget how to use the CLI or other editors to get the job done. Like they're junk food that makes you dumb.

This is as ridiculous as saying an electrician will forget how to correctly wire because their wire cutters are too good.

I used to be a build-my-own IDE person via VIM. After using PyCharm and realising an IDE is more than an editor, I realise the productivity gains every day.

If I need VIM or something else, it's just another tool in the box and the partisan fist shaking has no place in a mature profession and trade.

Re: Development Environments

#35

Post by mid-kid »

namaria wrote: post #17

I understand where the author is coming from and I myself sympathize with the idea of sticking to Unix philosophy of composing small focused tools instead of using complicated tools. That said, I have learned to stick to defaults and start from a clean slate every time. I often say that the main problem in software is containing complexity. When you need to deliver a product that works reliably, you want to remove al…

While I agree that this sort of workflow keeps development environments reproducible, I disagree with freezing editing tools like this. Nothing about your project should require specific IDEs or similar software. Like you said, less complexity is easier to make more reliable, so stick to purely the tools necessary to build and run the software, rather than including the tools to edit it.

If I need a VM for things, I typically start a small rsync or ftp server on the host so the VM only has to mirror the files, build and run.

Re: Development Environments

#36

Post by anotherhue »

sirsinsalot wrote: post #34

Many people seem to think using a commercial proprietary IDE means you somehow forget how to use the CLI or other editors to get the job done. Like they're junk food that makes you dumb. This is as ridiculous as saying an electrician will forget how to correctly wire because their wire cutters are too good. I used to be a build-my-own IDE person via VIM. After using PyCharm and realising an IDE is more than an editor…

It's not that one has forgotten, it's that one never learned.

I watch senior engineers struggle with basic CLI usage daily. In the modern sense of Senior of course.

Re: Development Environments

#37

Post by sirsinsalot »

anotherhue wrote: post #36
sirsinsalot wrote: post #34

Many people seem to think using a commercial proprietary IDE means you somehow forget how to use the CLI or other editors to get the job done. Like they're junk food that makes you dumb. This is as ridiculous as saying an electrician will forget how to correctly wire because their wire cutters are too good. I used to be a build-my-own IDE person via VIM. After using PyCharm and realising an IDE is more than an editor…

It's not that one has forgotten, it's that one never learned. I watch senior engineers struggle with basic CLI usage daily. In the modern sense of Senior of course.

Well the modern sense of senior leaves it likely that they have not yet learned to dress themselves either.

That aside, what one doesn't learn doesn't mean the mistake is what one does. Just that they didn't.

Re: Development Environments

#38

Post by a-dub »

invalidname wrote: post #33
a-dub wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the problem i have with ides is that you never know when some boss or it department will stand in the way of your favorite being available. from open source work at home to the most paranoid of high security environments, vim tends to be there pretty reliably.

This is like saying the problem with using my hands is that I never know when my next job will be a football (soccer) player. I get that it's a muscle you need to practice. But limiting yourself to fit a potential restriction makes no sense.

i've made use of various windows based microsoft ides, intellij, eclipse, wind river tornado, the qt creator, various activestate ides, various notebook ides and others i probably cannot even remember.

i've encountered these ides in various corporate environments in varying degrees of broken where fixes are essentially impossible. (assuming they're available in the first place)

i like vim, and other simple open source tools as they work reliably and are reliably available.

Re: Development Environments

#39

Post by aerique »

pech0rin wrote: post #12
invalidname wrote: post #2

I've been programming since well before we had IDEs... I love them. Proper modern IDEs provide a level of insight and tooling that the anti-IDE crowd just don't get. A couple of decades ago they were problematic. But today's unified toolchains and improvements made them far better. The one semi legitimate problem people have is performance. I run on an M1 Max with 64gb of RAM and gave a lot of RAM to IntelliJ (Ultima…

I dunno. I have used a lot of IDEs in my day but I always go back to emacs. I know its not for everyone but I can still have a running python, ruby, etc process and send bits of code to the process and interactively iterate on ideas smoothly. Also with the advent of language servers jump to definition, large refactoring of symbols, etc are pretty straightforward. The number 1 thing I hate about IDEs and will always h…

Emacs is an IDE in my opinion.

Whenever there's some hot new IDE feature it'll end up in Emacs sooner or later. Sometimes better than the original implementation, sometimes not.

What I like about Emacs is that it is timeless, works on a lot of platforms, supports a lot of programming languages (while a lot of modern IDEs are focused on a single language[1]) and also supports e-mail, Twitter, IRC, Matrix, etc. etc.

[1] Which makes them very good for that specific language, I get that. But I prefer Emacs' "just good" support if that means I don't have to learn a new IDE again.

Re: Development Environments

#40

Post by Communitivity »

pech0rin wrote: post #12
invalidname wrote: post #2

I've been programming since well before we had IDEs... I love them. Proper modern IDEs provide a level of insight and tooling that the anti-IDE crowd just don't get. A couple of decades ago they were problematic. But today's unified toolchains and improvements made them far better. The one semi legitimate problem people have is performance. I run on an M1 Max with 64gb of RAM and gave a lot of RAM to IntelliJ (Ultima…

I dunno. I have used a lot of IDEs in my day but I always go back to emacs. I know its not for everyone but I can still have a running python, ruby, etc process and send bits of code to the process and interactively iterate on ideas smoothly. Also with the advent of language servers jump to definition, large refactoring of symbols, etc are pretty straightforward. The number 1 thing I hate about IDEs and will always h…

I've used Emacs for development before, and like it. I also like the more purposed IDEs. I consider Emacs a general purpose IDE because with all the packages I add it has IDE functionality (source jumping, refactoring, syntax highlighting, debugger interface, compiler interface, code completion, etc.). It takes a bit to get it set up just right for a given language though.
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