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Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

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Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#411
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See though that all of these disasters are spread over 1500 years. Most of them supposedly kill people, but they don't make the land uninhabitable and nothing stops from next generations repopulating them. Keep in mind that Europe suffers at least two big plagues, migration waves, a mini ice age and lots of other disasters. The main depopulation factors are hunger and food logistics collapse.

Norway took a several centuries to get back to ~1300 levels after the Black Death going from ~37k farms in 1300 to still only 16k farms by 1520, nation wide (and we're not talking large farms here, in most cases). Entire regions were entirely abandoned by the government. Many farms that were abandoned after the plague where not cleared until the 1800's. If the population density was low to start with, and food produc…

You blame it all on the black death, however, Norway was on the front line of the little ice age, so those farms might have not been populated because the land itself was not able to sustain cultivation reliably. Tolkien mentions only one bad winter, but I can allow that he wasn't well versed in climate sciences and regional climate patterns. As a result we have something that can suppress population growth to a minimal level, however, we don't have good proves in the text for such events in Middle Earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#412
post #317
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gwern does a good job with them on his website.

He does but you're still clicking through rather than casually glancing at the bottom of a page as you would be a book or paper. Footnotes (or endnotes) are fine on the web (or Kindle, etc.) for reference that most people won't read. They're less good for parenthetical text.

Oh, I had his sidenotes in mind. See https://www.gwern.net/Sidenotes

Though for some reason, the sidenotes don't show up on my browser for his site at the moment?..

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#413
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But many parties are sparsely but explicitly described as making and using fantastically advanced marvels of somewhat magical technology in ancient times, some of which are still around like Sauron's Rings. Probably the most honest reason to not have guns in Middle-Earth is that only stupid orcs, not the elves and dwarves who could easily develop them as school projects, would be interested in such tasteless weapons.

Easily accessible guns require tools that were absent, like screw making machines etc. There were weapons, powerful weapons at that, but they depended heavily on artisanal production even if certain groups managed to reach manufacturing scale. Also, Middle Earth is still licking wounds from the great wars with Melkor, which took away most of the advanced regions, and what Gondor and Arnor tried to rebuild got heavily…

Saruman and Sauron are the only ones who seem interested in industrialization and in mass production for masses of orcs.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#414
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easily accessible guns require tools that were absent, like screw making machines etc. There were weapons, powerful weapons at that, but they depended heavily on artisanal production even if certain groups managed to reach manufacturing scale. Also, Middle Earth is still licking wounds from the great wars with Melkor, which took away most of the advanced regions, and what Gondor and Arnor tried to rebuild got heavily…

Saruman and Sauron are the only ones who seem interested in industrialization and in mass production for masses of orcs.

Sauron was never bound by the oaths Istari took, and Saruman broke his, and those involved not intervening too much. Most of the time, Gandalf & other Wizards were running around trying to keep things together so that societies could rebuild.

The remaining higher technology groups either lost the capability (Gondor), were destroyed (Arnor), are fighting constant war with Orcs with occasional dragon making problems that prevents building up proper industry (Dwarves), or are depopulated depressed groups that while not hoarding, do not interact with others anymore much and mostly use what remains of their industrial base to facilitate the last days of their race (Elves outside of Mirkwood - those in turn are trying but don't have much to build upon since Moria got overrun and they lost their main trading partner for technology).

The rest is down to subsistence farming levels without base of previous knowledge to rebuild or at least inspire.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#415

Something not mentioned in the article: Middle Earth is depopulated. Without large market, it does not make sense to produce at scale, nor you will have the capital to do it. The main characters travel hundreds of kilometers down the biggest river around and they don't encounter other vessels or a populated settlement until they reach Minas Tirith. And I'm not even mentioning the missing cities and villages in the in…

As a real world example consider the North of England. William the Bastard's genocidal "Harrying of the North" in 1069/70 either murdered or drove out over 75% of the population and left large areas severely depopulated for centuries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#416
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Grow some crops? An invading army will come and steal and trample them. That actually didn't happen the waste majority of cases. > Start a trading enterprise? Your ship will get raided by pirates or you die of tropical diseases. Again, most of the time that didn't happen. And you often didn't die of tropical diseases either. > Mine for coal? A coal heap will bury your town or you'll die in a collapse. Most towns we…

>> Grow some crops? An invading army will come and steal and trample them. > That actually didn't happen the waste majority of cases. It happened in many prominent cases. Egypt, for example, was called "the breadbasket of Rome."

Yes but not because armies rampaged over Egypt over and over again. Rome was just another state taxing the farmers.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#417
> Or, to put it another way, coal is the product of prehistoric biomass used to power steam engines that did a bit of an oopsie on the climate. But uh, prehistoric biomass, raises a bit of an issue. We have the entire history of Middle Earth written down and I… didn’t notice the part where Tolkien mentioned dinosaurs?

Why would it need dinosaurs to have coal. Wouldn’t it just need trees?

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#418

I highly recommend "The Last Ring Bearer" for people who like to have a bit of fun with Tokien. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer Eskov's version of the story describes Mordor as a peaceful constitutional monarchy on the verge of an industrial revolution, that poses a threat to the war-mongering and imperialistic faction represented by Gandalf (whose attitude has been described by Saruman as "crafting…

I love those two articles about the book (specially the second, written by the author himself)

https://www.salon.com/2011/02/15/last_ringbearer/ Middle-earth according to Mordor

https://www.salon.com/2011/02/23/last_ringbearer_explanation... Why I reimagined "LOTR" from Mordor's perspective

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#419

Seems clear the author: 1) knows next to nothing about Middle-Earth or Tolkien's larger work and honestly admits it, though continues to make sweeping generalizations about a subject they admittedly know little about; 2) knows nothing about classics, ancient history nor history of technology except perhaps bullet points gleaned from a pop documentary, iow, author displays extremely pedestrian and shallow knowledge or…

That’s my exact take on it, too.

The style would have been palatable if they had actually done their research.

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