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Development Environments

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Re: Development Environments

#21

Post by anothernewdude »

namaria wrote: post #17

I understand where the author is coming from and I myself sympathize with the idea of sticking to Unix philosophy of composing small focused tools instead of using complicated tools. That said, I have learned to stick to defaults and start from a clean slate every time. I often say that the main problem in software is containing complexity. When you need to deliver a product that works reliably, you want to remove al…

Default configurations change too often. I maintain two scripts on github that revert Ubuntu and MacOS to a stable setting where UI and UX things don't change.

Re: Development Environments

#22

Post by anothernewdude »

mcint wrote: post #3

The workflows enabled by Jupyter and iPython address some of your biggest concerns. You have references to previous outputs, don't recompute things, and in browser can have GUI interactive elements. You can likely find live streaming monitors too. Though that starts to break what the environment is best at: composing an edited, rational path through a process based on interactive exploration, trial and error. https:/…

The problem with in browser anything is that editing text in the browser sucks. It steals a lot of key bindings you can never get back, it allows for selection of the wrong element.

Also notebooks are a horrible way of working. They encourage code to get extremely unwieldy and make managing state harder than it needs to be.

Re: Development Environments

#23

Post by tsujp »

invalidname wrote: post #2

I've been programming since well before we had IDEs... I love them. Proper modern IDEs provide a level of insight and tooling that the anti-IDE crowd just don't get. A couple of decades ago they were problematic. But today's unified toolchains and improvements made them far better. The one semi legitimate problem people have is performance. I run on an M1 Max with 64gb of RAM and gave a lot of RAM to IntelliJ (Ultima…

What happens when you now want to work in say.. Crystal, or Shell, or Rust, or Zig, or any other language for which there is not an IDE (even those also by JetBrains) which is 1:1 feature compatible to IntelliJ? Not all JetBrains IDEs have the same features. Rider (for .NET) only recently got remote editing support which IntelliJ already had for instance.

Now you're only as good as your tool (IntelliJ) and you cannot work with any other language or tool which isn't 1:1 feature complete.

If you had an extensible text editor beit vim, neovim, Sublime Text, emacs, VS Code or others then you could add extensions or features per language and keep using your single core tool (said text editor) with a configuration per-language.

Re: Development Environments

#24

Post by emsy »

dhzhzjsbevs wrote: post #20
invalidname wrote: post #2

I've been programming since well before we had IDEs... I love them. Proper modern IDEs provide a level of insight and tooling that the anti-IDE crowd just don't get. A couple of decades ago they were problematic. But today's unified toolchains and improvements made them far better. The one semi legitimate problem people have is performance. I run on an M1 Max with 64gb of RAM and gave a lot of RAM to IntelliJ (Ultima…

Yea but you only need all that junk because you use Java. The rest of us just don't have that many files to refactor when we change things. I don't really hate ide's, I get the appeal, and sometimes it works out useful. It's just that most of the time it comes back to enterprisey software being the source of your problems, not the lack of features in your editor.

Not everyone works on small codebases. Encouraging refactoring is a good thing.

Re: Development Environments

#25

Post by pjmlp »

invalidname wrote: post #2

I've been programming since well before we had IDEs... I love them. Proper modern IDEs provide a level of insight and tooling that the anti-IDE crowd just don't get. A couple of decades ago they were problematic. But today's unified toolchains and improvements made them far better. The one semi legitimate problem people have is performance. I run on an M1 Max with 64gb of RAM and gave a lot of RAM to IntelliJ (Ultima…

Same here, heck even James Gosling, the author of XEmacs and many UNIX utilities, says he would rather use an IDE nowadays.

Re: Development Environments

#26

Post by pjmlp »

dhzhzjsbevs wrote: post #20
invalidname wrote: post #2

I've been programming since well before we had IDEs... I love them. Proper modern IDEs provide a level of insight and tooling that the anti-IDE crowd just don't get. A couple of decades ago they were problematic. But today's unified toolchains and improvements made them far better. The one semi legitimate problem people have is performance. I run on an M1 Max with 64gb of RAM and gave a lot of RAM to IntelliJ (Ultima…

Yea but you only need all that junk because you use Java. The rest of us just don't have that many files to refactor when we change things. I don't really hate ide's, I get the appeal, and sometimes it works out useful. It's just that most of the time it comes back to enterprisey software being the source of your problems, not the lack of features in your editor.

Good IDEs precede Java, e.g. Borland products for Turbo Pascal and C++, Common Lisp and Smalltalk environments.

The anti-IDE crowd seems to like to pick on Java.

Re: Development Environments

#27

Post by pjmlp »

pech0rin wrote: post #12
invalidname wrote: post #2

I've been programming since well before we had IDEs... I love them. Proper modern IDEs provide a level of insight and tooling that the anti-IDE crowd just don't get. A couple of decades ago they were problematic. But today's unified toolchains and improvements made them far better. The one semi legitimate problem people have is performance. I run on an M1 Max with 64gb of RAM and gave a lot of RAM to IntelliJ (Ultima…

I dunno. I have used a lot of IDEs in my day but I always go back to emacs. I know its not for everyone but I can still have a running python, ruby, etc process and send bits of code to the process and interactively iterate on ideas smoothly. Also with the advent of language servers jump to definition, large refactoring of symbols, etc are pretty straightforward. The number 1 thing I hate about IDEs and will always h…

Meanwhile the author of XEmacs says he prefers modern IDEs.

Re: Development Environments

#28

Post by invalidname »

dhzhzjsbevs wrote: post #20
invalidname wrote: post #2

I've been programming since well before we had IDEs... I love them. Proper modern IDEs provide a level of insight and tooling that the anti-IDE crowd just don't get. A couple of decades ago they were problematic. But today's unified toolchains and improvements made them far better. The one semi legitimate problem people have is performance. I run on an M1 Max with 64gb of RAM and gave a lot of RAM to IntelliJ (Ultima…

Yea but you only need all that junk because you use Java. The rest of us just don't have that many files to refactor when we change things. I don't really hate ide's, I get the appeal, and sometimes it works out useful. It's just that most of the time it comes back to enterprisey software being the source of your problems, not the lack of features in your editor.

I write most of my code in Java but I have a lot of C, Objective-C, JavaScript and many other languages. In fact I found IDE's to be even more useful for JS since it's such a mess. It's much easier to shoot yourself in the foot in other IDEs.

I started with Java 27 years ago and back then text editors were the only option for years. So I can use them just fine for Java.

Re: Development Environments

#29

Post by invalidname »

tsujp wrote: post #23
invalidname wrote: post #2

I've been programming since well before we had IDEs... I love them. Proper modern IDEs provide a level of insight and tooling that the anti-IDE crowd just don't get. A couple of decades ago they were problematic. But today's unified toolchains and improvements made them far better. The one semi legitimate problem people have is performance. I run on an M1 Max with 64gb of RAM and gave a lot of RAM to IntelliJ (Ultima…

What happens when you now want to work in say.. Crystal, or Shell, or Rust, or Zig, or any other language for which there is not an IDE (even those also by JetBrains) which is 1:1 feature compatible to IntelliJ? Not all JetBrains IDEs have the same features. Rider (for .NET) only recently got remote editing support which IntelliJ already had for instance. Now you're only as good as your tool (IntelliJ) and you cannot…

I can use text editors and other IDEs just fine. An IDE gives me more power and for 99% of my work I can live within it. I'm just slower.

I used Visual Studio when working with C# which is fine. Not as great. Didn't get a chance to do either Zig or Rust in practice (both look great and I would want to go there).

This argument is like arguing against shoes because of "what will you do when you're barefoot".

Re: Development Environments

#30

Post by EdwardDiego »

dhzhzjsbevs wrote: post #20
invalidname wrote: post #2

I've been programming since well before we had IDEs... I love them. Proper modern IDEs provide a level of insight and tooling that the anti-IDE crowd just don't get. A couple of decades ago they were problematic. But today's unified toolchains and improvements made them far better. The one semi legitimate problem people have is performance. I run on an M1 Max with 64gb of RAM and gave a lot of RAM to IntelliJ (Ultima…

Yea but you only need all that junk because you use Java. The rest of us just don't have that many files to refactor when we change things. I don't really hate ide's, I get the appeal, and sometimes it works out useful. It's just that most of the time it comes back to enterprisey software being the source of your problems, not the lack of features in your editor.

It doesn't matter how many files you have, it's how many functions or types or methods etc. ...and where they're used and how they're used.
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