If you want speed/performance. Make your website/app cache friendly!
Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno
211–220 of 249 posts
Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno
#212I listened to a conference talk[0] where Dylan talks about fresh framework and he says quoting: "We have this little project at Deno ... it's not a web framework that we're really promoting or you know intending to utilise long term. More of kind of a demo of what this post unix web frameworks might look like" Is it worth investing in this now? It really put me off. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBcFJmQ6UVM at…
I interpreted this as politeness given that it’s the inaugural conference of Remix, a direct competitor in the space.
Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno
#213Maybe I am getting all wrong, but this sounds like PHP.
To me the part about:
"... and the client is only responsible for re-rendering small islands of interactivity. A model where the developer explicitly opts in to client side rendering for specific components. ..."
actually sounds more like ASP.NET (the original Web Forms, not Core) support for AJAX:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/api/system.web.ui.up...
Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno
#214In 2007 I was writing websites that were mostly rendered on a server, with JavaScript used selectively in some places for interactivity I remember writing at the time that moving everything to the client was solving one problem (poor encapsulation of JavaScript-powered front-end components) with another (needlessly rendering everything on the client) The industry moved toward CSR anyway, and I had to learn it to cont…
Because OOH LOOK A SHINY NEW FRAMEWORK!
Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno
#215For those websites that can use it (like a blog), it seems like static site generation would be better, to cache the database requests? Then you can run in the free tier of Netlify or using GitHub pages, for example. Or to do the opposite, for a single-player website where there aren't any server requests to cache, a client-only website can run offline. Fresh looks good for multi-player websites that are unavoidably…
I similarly wish Fresh did full server side generation. Even Next.JS has a tool to export as a static site. Maybe it will come to Fresh at some point, or maybe it’s there and just not well documented. I’m using NanoJSX with Deno to render JSX on the server and spit the result into a file, but I’m having to write a lot of SSG stuff myself, (like logic to loop over files).
They're probably planning on making another vercel way and tie in future customers to their platform running v8 isolates.
I understand it from a business point of view but it's bad for users and for performance. Same thing happened to images in next. The plugins to have optimized images in next are all broken and the official one use a "free" dynamic route offered by vercel.
Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Or is it just being able to run code on the server enough to be "full stack"? To me, "full stack" would entail having responsibility for logic on both the front-end and back-end, which Fresh does. Personally, I would not consider Laravel a full stack framework (Although it can work well with front-end frameworks to make a full-stack application). Instead I'd consider it a back-end framework.
In the case of laravel, I think that having by default a pretty awesome templating system (which even allows for components), a webpack based build system for frontend assets, easy way to serve, cache and bust assets, and a trivially easy way to submit forms and validate user input makes it pretty full stack. Same for Rails, and not event talking about HotWire/LiveWire with might not be considered parts of the framew…
Not here to defend Fresh, it has lot of flaws, but
> I think that having by default a pretty awesome templating system (which even allows for components), a webpack based build system for frontend assets
Fresh literally does that "by default" without having to include any library/dependency.
> easy way to serve, cache and bust assets, and a trivially easy way to submit forms and validate user input.
It's almost the same effort in Fresh.
> makes it pretty full stack
Define fullstack, but even defining it, Fresh totally covers what you said.
To be "fullstack" to me means to be filling in all stacks, being in web? Frontend and Backend. To me, having a templating system and having things rendered in backend can be "frontend", but you saying "Laravels is pretty more close to a fullstack framework than Fresh" is not something very logic here.
Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno
#217> But client-side rendering is expensive; the framework often will ship hundreds of kilobytes of client-side JavaScript to users on each request. These JS bundles often do little more than rendering static content that could just as well have been served as plain HTML. server-side rendering for each request in V8 might be more expensive to host than client side rendering in V8? for a properly-chunked app, hopefully m…
> server-side rendering for each request in V8 might be more expensive to host than client side rendering in V8?
Considering mobile, embedded or even considering that my grandmother still owns a i3 4th gen, maybe would be better SSR, but for modern machines i'm not in for SSR, still feels a little bit clunky to me.
> for a properly-chunked app, hopefully most requests for the larger vendor bundles are cached/JITed, and each request doesnt actually download much extra JS. Yes, cache here helps alot, but saving mobile data still be pretty good, considering some SPAs doesn't chunk it's script files very well.
Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno
#218In 2007 I was writing websites that were mostly rendered on a server, with JavaScript used selectively in some places for interactivity I remember writing at the time that moving everything to the client was solving one problem (poor encapsulation of JavaScript-powered front-end components) with another (needlessly rendering everything on the client) The industry moved toward CSR anyway, and I had to learn it to cont…
Because this isn't the same as what you were writing in 2007. This is an improvement on that. There is some degree of chasing what is new, but I think it is more so that all of this is a process of learning which causes the focus to oscillate between different extremes.
Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
The question makes no sense and your answer is wildly misleading and inaccurate. A server is not 'rendering' a website the same way a client does. A couple of dozen requests a second? In drupal in dev mode maybe but even then... I feel like we need to have a bit of a knowledge reset before spouting supposed info about csr v ssr
> A server is not 'rendering' a website the same way a client does. While this is technically true, there is still "rendering" happening on the server when you JIT-compile JSX/TSX templates and transpile everything from your ES6 modules and includes to HTML/CSS/JS that a browser can parse. In a sense you're splitting the load between client and server because you're right some stuff always has to run client side (lik…
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Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno
#220I'm typically pretty hard on Deno (mostly surrounding dependencies), but this is probably an extremely good use-case for it. I might have to pick this up for side projects that need fast iteration.