Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Modos Paper Monitor

modos.tech

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 85 posts

Re: The Modos Paper Monitor

#71

Post by FullyFunctional »

robinsoh wrote: post #42
bayindirh wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The methods or refreshing e-ink displays are called "Wave Functions" in e-ink parlance, and they're actually implemented in software. However, somehow they're so closely guarded, and even if you have top of the line e-ink reader, it might not come with a license for a nice Wave Function which refreshes your display very nicely. For example, one of the most attractive features of Kindles is they use the best Wave Func…

> The methods or refreshing e-ink displays are called "Wave Functions" in e-ink parlance, and they're actually implemented in software. I've never heard of "wave functions" in the context of electrophoretic displays nor have I ever seen a widely used commercial e-ink controller implement a software update method. Do you mean waveform table? All of them that I've seen in commercial use rely on hardware updates to perf…

It would be hard to miss as it’s required to display anything. However, most dev kits come with a controller which embeds a [proprietary] set of waveforms. That however leaves you with conservative implementations and far from state-of-the-art.

Re: The Modos Paper Monitor

#72

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan »

formerly_proven wrote: post #12
meon46 wrote: post #3

I know a lot a people seem to prefer e-paper to LCDs. However, I have not yet found papers that could show a significant benefit with regards to eye strain of e-paper over other types of displays. If you are outside and have reflections, shure - but inside?

I think it's very common for people to use "wrong" settings on their monitors (besides often bad ergonomics in general). If you have pretty much any amount of natural ambient light in your office, and you don't adjust the monitor's brightness over the course of the day, it's probably wrong for long durations. Many folks seem to leave monitors at default settings, which are generally way too bright for most environmen…

A monitor that auto-adjusts not just brightness, but contrast and color temp, based on input from a couple cameras (both in front and behind the display) has the potential to be incredible.

Samsung's "The Frame" televisions get close to this, as do some smarthome hubs and smart picture frames, but I've never seen an equivalent standalone desktop monitor with these features.

Re: The Modos Paper Monitor

#73

Post by jeanlucas »

reacharavindh wrote: post #30
fho wrote: post #23

I am still hoping for a large, reasonable priced eInk display that I can frame and hang up on a wall. Does not even have to be color, I would be fine with just changing through different black&white dithered images over time. But large eInk displays are prohibitively expensive for what is basically a gimmick :-/

This. I'd buy a reasonably priced 10+ inch E-ink display that I can use as an art display on the wall or a creative dashboard of things I care about. However, anything above the size of a Kindle is too expensive for this purpose. A kindle is rather too small... I will wait until I can buy one for I dont need wifi, "smart", or "cloud" features in it. Just the ability to push images into it statically.

This is something I'd love to make, but I fear it would be impossible to make it less than 500 USD, currently. Not including taxes.

Re: The Modos Paper Monitor

#74

Post by robinsoh »

russh wrote: post #69
robinsoh wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The methods or refreshing e-ink displays are called "Wave Functions" in e-ink parlance, and they're actually implemented in software. I've never heard of "wave functions" in the context of electrophoretic displays nor have I ever seen a widely used commercial e-ink controller implement a software update method. Do you mean waveform table? All of them that I've seen in commercial use rely on hardware updates to perf…

https://github.com/vroland/epdiy/tree/master/src/epd_driver/...

Please clarify what you are attempting to communicate with the link to the header file, otherwise it looks like you just googled and gave a link to something that you yourself don't really understand.

Re: The Modos Paper Monitor

#75

Post by robinsoh »

FullyFunctional wrote: post #71
robinsoh wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The methods or refreshing e-ink displays are called "Wave Functions" in e-ink parlance, and they're actually implemented in software. I've never heard of "wave functions" in the context of electrophoretic displays nor have I ever seen a widely used commercial e-ink controller implement a software update method. Do you mean waveform table? All of them that I've seen in commercial use rely on hardware updates to perf…

It would be hard to miss as it’s required to display anything. However, most dev kits come with a controller which embeds a [proprietary] set of waveforms. That however leaves you with conservative implementations and far from state-of-the-art.

> most dev kits come with a controller which embeds a [proprietary] set of waveforms. That however leaves you with conservative implementations and far from state-of-the-art.

Please clarify what dev kits you are referring to. What do you mean state-of-the-art?

Re: The Modos Paper Monitor

#76

Post by throwawaySG »

speechtotext wrote: post #57

Is anyone aware of any development for a product which can be a fast-refresh monitor while USB-C powered, but has a battery-powered PDF tablet mode when disconnected? I use both a Digital Paper tablet and Mira monitor and suspect that many in the eink cabal would happily give market share to a product that serves both purposes.

This isn't really a tablet, but may come close enough: https://www.sunvisiondisplay.com/product/SVD-32-Color-RLCD-C...

Re: The Modos Paper Monitor

#77

Post by bayindirh »

robinsoh wrote: post #42
bayindirh wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The methods or refreshing e-ink displays are called "Wave Functions" in e-ink parlance, and they're actually implemented in software. However, somehow they're so closely guarded, and even if you have top of the line e-ink reader, it might not come with a license for a nice Wave Function which refreshes your display very nicely. For example, one of the most attractive features of Kindles is they use the best Wave Func…

> The methods or refreshing e-ink displays are called "Wave Functions" in e-ink parlance, and they're actually implemented in software. I've never heard of "wave functions" in the context of electrophoretic displays nor have I ever seen a widely used commercial e-ink controller implement a software update method. Do you mean waveform table? All of them that I've seen in commercial use rely on hardware updates to perf…

So, I have looked around and refreshed what I've read, and what I've saw. Let me try to summarize.

In short, the controller you are referring to as defines what you can send to the screen and what not, in other words, it gives you a capability ceiling, but the capability is not inside the controller. In your words, it defines the capability maximum for "waveform table processing".

On the other hand, the controllers you have are sitting ducks without these waveforms (which my mind conventionally renamed them to wave functions, well because they're waves, and they're defined as functions, and my brain is all hazy because everything I read, sorry about that).

These waveforms allows us to reach from a state to a state, generally in page scope, so you generally refresh the page completely. I understand that partial refreshes are also possible, but I don't know how they're implemented, exactly. My Kobo does it rather elegantly, but it might be pushing whole-screen updates too. Anyways.

[0] contains a PDF file which details how to process a waveform table, probably sold as a part of a screen by Waveshare. It details how to interpret the file, and how to make use of the data in the flash file, and drive the screen in most efficient/correct manner. It details gray levels, some special functions for maximizing blackness, etc.

[1] contains the article which brought me to the entrance of the rabbit hole. They give the basic details how they're software defined and controller can use many available waveforms, and you need to license them separately from the controller itself.

[2] is a product page for an eInk display, and it briefly mentions that the image quality you can get it both dependent on the controller and the waveform file you gonna get.

At the end of the day, yes you gonna need a panel controller to talk to your display properly, but what you can do and can't do with it is codified inside the waveform file you get with your device, and it's decoupled from the controller itself.

I guess it's possible that the controller you have can be too primitive to interpret or execute the waveform you have at hand, but vice versa is possible. i.e. your waveform is more primitive than the controller's capability ceiling, and despite having the best controller, you can't get most of the both your controller and your screen.

As a last note, [3] contains a reverse engineering effort and project for these waveforms, which I was not aware of before.

[0]: https://www.waveshare.net/w/upload/c/c4/E-paper-mode-declara...

[1]: https://goodereader.com/blog/e-paper/e-ink-waveforms-are-a-c...

[2]: https://www.eink.com/product.html?type=productdetail&id=1

[3]: https://hackaday.io/project/21168-fpga-eink-controller/log/5...

Re: The Modos Paper Monitor

#78

Post by dredmorbius »

ladyattis wrote: post #64
dredmorbius wrote: post #63

The medium is the message^W affordance . During the aughts, I got used to saying "Linux is not Windows" --- if you're looking for a Microsoft experience on a Free Software operating system ... you're liable to be disappointed. If you accept the strengths, and weaknesses, of a platform, you're going to be far happier. The first computers I used didn't have e-ink displays. They had ink displays. Teletype access to an e…

Yep, I think there's no need to make e-ink into a competitor for oled or lcd monitors. Something like a tablet or small purpose built computer like a POS machine with built in scanner and card reader is something I think would fit best for this kind of display rather than forcing LCD/OLED to handle small form factors but somehow compete on power usage.

My suggestion is somewhat different.

It's that e-ink is a viable display, but that it provides a different set of capabilities which must be recognised in the tools (applications, interfaces) which are used on it. Some of those already exist, others might have to be developed or tweaked. And platforms in which the display endpoint is not predefined (e.g., Web content), consideration of e-ink and other alternative display formats and factors will have to be increasingly considered either be designers or by application developers. Again, EinkBro is an examplar of the latter: an e-ink optimised Web browser with a specific design philosophy informed by the characteristics of e-ink displays. (I've had numerous exchanges with the developer, Daniel Kao, and he gets it.)

https://github.com/plateaukao/browser

Text- and static-graphic-centric presentation works well. High-colour and dynamic displays don't. A large set of traditional text-mode tools (e.g., traditional Unix/Linux userland, and tools inspired by these) work quite well, as do many graphical presentations so long as they respect the properties of the display.

I've reflected a fair bit on the MOAD (mother of all demonstrations), now 54 years in our past. MOAD was based on the principles of high-framerate emissive displays, and virtually all elements shown in the demonstration remain the core elements of present-generation graphical displays, despite the migration from CRT to LED to OLED/Plasma displays. All effectively are emissive and low-latency.

Another alternative would be to adopt different display options. LCD (or transflective LCD) is one option; these work fundamentally by light polarisation, which means that they halve whatever ambient or backlight intensity is provided, greatly reducing apparent contrast.

What might be interesting would be a materials advance in which substances or fluid cells transition between primary colour states, giving the ability to directly create static pixels of a given colour, under some influence --- electric or magnetic influence, perhaps some induced pH state change. If that's a durable shift (e.g., there's a stable state that isn't changed until a new stimulus is applied), then we'd have a new display technology. That might even give a true ink-mixing behaviour, if, say, a given fluid cell or particle fibre might include multiple colour elements which would mix as paint or ink pigments do. Any material scientists know of materials which transition between white and CMYK spectra?

Advantages of E-Ink include not only power but readability in high-ambient light situations, or under normal room lighting rather than requiring an independently illuminated display as with LCD screens.

Depending on how displays are specifically addressed, the possibility of arbitrarily large displays at lower costs might also exist. That ... would be interesting. I have the usual present fear: that these would be appropriated principally for advertising and propaganda on wall- or building-sized form factors.

Re: The Modos Paper Monitor

#79

Post by RedBeetDeadpool »

fho wrote: post #51
RedBeetDeadpool wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good news is they do exist, and manufacturers do make them even if they are prohibitively expensive. If you want it enough you can actually pay to get it made and shipped to you, which is better than not having that option at all.

Last time I checked in the displays in the sizes I am interested in (>= DIN A2) are in the lower five figure ranges ... for that price I could buy several real art pieces that I like :-)

yikes. Fair enough.

Re: The Modos Paper Monitor

#80

Post by frosted-flakes »

bayindirh wrote: post #28
nextos wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me too, but perhaps cheap AMOLEDs will come sooner and they can kind of be an okeyish replacement? If one runs an AMOLED on black background, e.g. a terminal, a text editor or an inverted PDF, only the pixels displaying characters will be lit. Maybe this is good enough? I experimented with an AMOLED tablet displaying inverted PDFs and it felt similar to a Kindle. However, this was my completely subjective perception.…

OLED displays cannot replace E-ink displays. Even reading on dark backgrounds with OLED tires my eyes the same way using an IPS panel. Nothing can replace the dynamics of an e-ink display as of today.

Sharp's Memory LCD comes pretty close. It's a high contrast LCD with a reflective back layer that mimics paper and has very low power consumption. But I believe it's only available on small sizes, and it's a one-bit display (no greyscale).

This screen is used in Panic's Playdate game console as well as the Pebble smartwatch.

https://sharpdevices.com/memory-lcd/#1615975689583-4d044034-...

https://www.adafruit.com/product/4694

Post reply on HN