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Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

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Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#161

Post by __alexs »

leeoniya wrote: post #20
lucacasonato wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> server-side rendering for each request in V8 might be more expensive to host than client side rendering in V8? Expensive not in money terms, but in user experience. Also: if you are doing e-commerce, 100ms added latency can cost you 7-8% in conversions. Spending 5% more on hosting to do SSR just makes economic sense.

> 100ms added latency can cost you 7-8% in conversions i hear this metric (or something equally absurd) cited frequently and have never seen it to be true in my own experience. i guess if you have to load a product page with 100 images (or assets) and each has 100ms network latency, then it will add up to much more than that. but 100ms for a single interaction or network request (e.g. process payment POST) is not goi…

I did a study on this (N>100m) at a previous employer who had quite a lot of e-commerce traffic.

It's sort of true but also a massive over simplification. The relationship between conversion and speed is not linear. Some people are beyond help, and others already have it so good they only notice the most extreme degradation in performance.

It's also hard to isolate confounding factors like users who have fast infrastructure tend to be rich and rich people buy more stuff. Making pages load faster doesn't give them more money to buy stuff.

Overall faster is definitely better but the specific magnitude will depend on your customer demographics. In our case the Amazon 100ms saved = 1% more sales was close enough for a rule of thumb.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#162

Post by naet »

likortera wrote: post #21

Am I the only one that think nowadays anything can be called "full stack"? For me "full stack" is something like Rails, Laravel, Django, etc. Or is it just being able to run code on the server enough to be "full stack"? I'm missing the translations system, the validations, the background jobs, the authentication system, authorization helpers, email sending, ORM or data access layer, testing framework, CSRF and relate…

Full stack * is * just running code on the backend and frontend. There is no complexity requirement for something to be considered a full stack. You could have a super simple todo list with native javascript that persists by writing to a single sqlite table and that is a complete "full stack" web application.

You could have something incredibly intensive on the front end using a bunch of modern frameworks and visualization tools. Or something incredibly intensive on the back end with some of the features you mentioned in your post. But neither is strictly required and many apps will function with just the basics on either or both ends.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#163

Post by rglover »

naikrovek wrote: post #160
rglover wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument is fuzzy. Your goal shouldn't be replacement just because it's old , but rather, because you actually have a more efficient or easy to understand approach. As far as I can tell, there's a marketing term ("post-unix") but not any concrete ideas backing it. The Ryan Dahl post linked above is equally fuzzy as it seems to just be saying "use an encapsulated runtime for scripting that replaces existing Unix-…

it means simply that there is always something better, waiting to be discovered, and that we should not let ourselves become acclimated to inferior things simply because we've used those things a lot, and know them. there is always something to improve. find it. improve it. still fuzzy? it is our moral obligation to improve ourselves and the world around us. I don't know how much clearer I can be.

I agree in general that yes, you should be seeking improvements but is there a specific improvement tied to this term (post-unix)? The term itself implies that there is a concrete idea or set of ideas it involves.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#165

Post by pxeger1 »

andruby wrote: post #155
pritambarhate wrote: post #67

This can be the killer app that Deno needs. As of now there is no specific reason for most of the people to try Deno as Node with its plethora of frameworks works and every one can choose their stack as per their taste. But if they can make Fresh sufficiently better (more cohesive and/or performant on both client and server side) and more feature rich on the backend (ORM + Workers/Queuing) with instant deploy then mo…

I didn’t find a mention id this Fresh framework could also run on Node. In other words: is it relying on anything deno-specific?

Deno and Node are not generally compatible:

- their module/packaging systems are totally different

- their APIs for interacting with the system are different

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#166

Post by peterangular »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #137
DanHulton wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually part of why I created Nodewood [1], because every new Node project required pulling all that together, and every new SaaS idea I had had the same basic requirements (user management, subscription management, teams support, etc). Then I figured, if I found this useful, surely others would too, so I packaged it up and have had a few happy customers since then, who have helped me refine it, which feeds…

To each his own, personally I stay away from Django and full fledged frameworks (context: I run a few small saas and launch new products frequently). I find that having to dig to find out how things are done and trying to hack around the framework is the cause of bugs and frustrations. I still manage two services based on Django and they're a continue cause of pain. I'd rather spend a week at the beginning of the pro…

> I'd rather spend a week at the beginning of the project and set things up the way I want them with minimal dependencies.

Same.

The only time that I've gone away from this strategy is when I need to get other developers to buy-in to a framework (or hell just a "system of work"). In leadership roles, I've found that a highly-opinionated framework with lots of batteries included really helps keep people coloring inside the lines. For me anecdotally that's more important than having a low-dependency codebase that's very appropriately sized to the problem it's solving.

I've found it's way easier to dodge the inevitable "X way sucks" from my colleagues/subordinates by using "full framework" tools that I can pitch to non-technical management vs. a bespoke solution.

Batteries included frameworks solve people problems more than they do software problems.

---

Just want to reiterate that I absolutely agree with you and the only time I find tools like Django appropriate is when other developers need tooling that keeps them "in the lines," and/or when I'm expecting to have to pitch my solution to non-technical peers/leadership.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#167

Post by IshKebab »

rglover wrote: post #134
naikrovek wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well many of us think that the excellent ideas of computing in the 1970s (those that produced Unix) are no longer the best ways to do things, and believe that the community should be innovating much more. a lot of those innovations are over 50 years old, now. do we REALLY believe that the Unix Philosophy is the best thing in the history of computing? past and future? really? I don't. and what about in another 50 year…

This argument is fuzzy. Your goal shouldn't be replacement just because it's old , but rather, because you actually have a more efficient or easy to understand approach. As far as I can tell, there's a marketing term ("post-unix") but not any concrete ideas backing it. The Ryan Dahl post linked above is equally fuzzy as it seems to just be saying "use an encapsulated runtime for scripting that replaces existing Unix-…

You're over-thinking things. Post-unix clearly just means "something more modern than 70s Unix design". I don't think anyone ever tries to make something newer but not better so that's never a goal.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#168

Post by IshKebab »

avl999 wrote: post #126
naikrovek wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well many of us think that the excellent ideas of computing in the 1970s (those that produced Unix) are no longer the best ways to do things, and believe that the community should be innovating much more. a lot of those innovations are over 50 years old, now. do we REALLY believe that the Unix Philosophy is the best thing in the history of computing? past and future? really? I don't. and what about in another 50 year…

Massive eyeroll

Why? Or are you one of those "Unix was born perfect and no further progress is possible" types?

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#169

Post by swat535 »

la_fayette wrote: post #53

Maybe I am getting all wrong, but this sounds like PHP.

Yes, because true innovation rarely happens quickly and most things are just cyclical and hype driven in software.

I'm patiently waiting until we either discover Java or reinvent it all over again.. but this time it will be cool because it won't be called Java, it will be rather "JMocha" and really drive that productivity you're looking for when mixed with your Latte's 3.0 strong typing.

I suppose I'll be in my not-so cool corner working in my monorepo, single server and outdated Rails app on Postgresql; If only I could achieve Github scale with that..

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#170

Post by jstummbillig »

leeoniya wrote: post #8

> But client-side rendering is expensive; the framework often will ship hundreds of kilobytes of client-side JavaScript to users on each request. These JS bundles often do little more than rendering static content that could just as well have been served as plain HTML. server-side rendering for each request in V8 might be more expensive to host than client side rendering in V8? for a properly-chunked app, hopefully m…

CSR is expensive, because you lose customers over bad performance (measurably), and you can not scale the client. You can however scale the server.
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