Oversold is the wrong word -- college is overpriced. Oversold implies that not going to college is a good option, and it isn't. Overpriced on the other hand implies that there's way too much money being charged today for the same quality of education that was much cheaper years ago.
College has been oversold
241–250 of 254 posts
Re: College has been oversold
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Really, it's a cultural problem. No, it's an economic one. > I have a liberal arts degree from an "elite private university". Ok. Let's make the assumption that you're at least moderately intelligent and would be able to get a job for 40K from the bat. 40K * 4 = 160K College tuition is 40K itself at an "elite private university". Then you add living expenses, books, food, etc. and you have another 25K. That's 65K.…
> The kids get that. That's why they don't go to class. Baloney. They don't go to class because they are hung over, or because a new movie came out, or because they want to play video games, or because they just don't feel like going. A very few don't go because they are sick or have actual life issues beyond being unmotivated. They are - as a rule of thumb, say, about 98% of the time - not sipping wine and discussin…
As much as I would like it to be true, discussing complex issues will have very few influence on your future career.
Being good at socializing and networking will. An awful lot. And being hung over with friends does qualify for that.
Re: College has been oversold
#243Earlier quoted context omitted.
Could you explain your source for the statistic you used on an avg. 38.5 hour work week for teachers? The only relevant information I found in the linked PDF was chart 2, which has the following footnote: NOTE: The calculations of hours worked are based on data collected about how survey respondents spent “yesterday.” Thus, average weekly work hours are an extrapolation based on the activity for 1 day. That footnote…
That footnote seems to imply that the avg. hours worked per week calculation may not be very accurate. The linked PDF also doesn't mention if the hours reported are the contracted hours for the teacher or the total hours spent working including work at home and outside of school hours. The ATUS asks about work done for pay (or for free if it's for a family-owned business), not work you do beyond the hours you actuall…
The ATUS asks about work done for pay (or for free if it's for a family-owned business), not work you do beyond the hours you actually get paid for.
False.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.tn.htm
[edit: can't reply to your reply, but:
"This category includes time spent working, doing activities as part of one’s job, engaging in income-generating activities (not as part of one’s job), and job search activities. "Working" includes hours spent doing the specific tasks required of one’s main or other job, regardless of location or time of day. "Work-related activities" include activities that are not obviously work but are done as part of one’s job, such as having a business lunch or playing golf with clients."
]
Re: College has been oversold
#244Earlier quoted context omitted.
That footnote seems to imply that the avg. hours worked per week calculation may not be very accurate. The linked PDF also doesn't mention if the hours reported are the contracted hours for the teacher or the total hours spent working including work at home and outside of school hours. The ATUS asks about work done for pay (or for free if it's for a family-owned business), not work you do beyond the hours you actuall…
The ATUS asks about work done for pay (or for free if it's for a family-owned business), not work you do beyond the hours you actually get paid for. False. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.tn.htm [edit: can't reply to your reply, but: "This category includes time spent working, doing activities as part of one’s job, engaging in income-generating activities (not as part of one’s job), and job search activities. "W…
Where in that document does it give this alternative definition for "for either pay or profit"?
BTW, "These activities are those that persons 'are paid for or will be paid for.'" That does not describe unpaid hours.
Re: College has been oversold
#245Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's assuming that an 18-year-old outside of the tech field could get a $32k/yr job to begin with. Looking at the unemployment rates for people without college degrees, there's a pretty large chance they wouldn't be able to get any job at all.
There's too many variables for people to be crunching numbers like this... while I went through university I lived at home and worked at jobs that paid $17/hour minimum. My total take home would probably be comparable to that of a person making less but paying for room and board. I say this with the assumption that those who skipped post-secondary education in favor of a job moved out of their homes almost immediatel…
I'm assuming you graduated with a bachelors? At the end of your BS, it's definitely worth thinking about opportunity cost (eg. is graduate school "worth it"). When I was working toward my PhD (engineering, with goals to eventually be entrepreneur)... I had to fend off detractors: "if you want to make money or do a startup, stop at a MS and get out there." I politely disagreed. Getting my PhD was a personal goal and shouldn't detract from future entrepreneurial activities.
Like you, I lived frugally during my entire educational experience, and the tuition was largely paid for through scholarship / fellowship. For talented people (who could prosper after dropping out), college expenses can be fairly minimal.
Re: College has been oversold
#246Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is an avenue I'm investigating. Just trying to find the right place to go. Right now I'm doing a software craftsman apprenticeship to increase the quality of place I can get a job. When that's done (it's a 20-30 hour commitment on top of a full-time+ job) in January, I'm going to get involved in some OSS projects. The move is probably at least 6-12 months out.
It sounds alot to me like you're having confidence issues. By all means, get involved with OSS, but do it for love, not to beef up your CV. If you have no code to your name, stick your SC exercises on GitHub and start applying . There was a hiring thread here yesterday with at least a hundred jobs across the US. Opportunity is ripe. Worst case scenario if you do? You won't get anything good. Worst case scenario if yo…
This is probably not something I should talk too much about on a venue filled with potential employers or coworkers. But I think self-awareness is important, so I'll say a few things.
You're right on with the confidence (and persistence?) issues. That's one reason for doing the SC thing. It's helping me build up some confidence. I've been programming for quite a number of years. My day jobs for the last several years have destroyed the confidence I used to have. I'm getting it back, and quickly. And that makes me very, very happy.
OSS is something I want to be a core part of my job, because I use and appreciate it so much. I've tried getting involved with several projects before. Invariably my confidence falters enough that I give up before I really get going.
I'll go over to the two jobs threads from the other day and apply to some places. There were at least 3 or 4 that I would LOVE to work at.
Re: College has been oversold
#247Earlier quoted context omitted.
It sounds alot to me like you're having confidence issues. By all means, get involved with OSS, but do it for love, not to beef up your CV. If you have no code to your name, stick your SC exercises on GitHub and start applying . There was a hiring thread here yesterday with at least a hundred jobs across the US. Opportunity is ripe. Worst case scenario if you do? You won't get anything good. Worst case scenario if yo…
This is probably not something I should talk too much about on a venue filled with potential employers or coworkers. But I think self-awareness is important, so I'll say a few things. You're right on with the confidence (and persistence?) issues. That's one reason for doing the SC thing. It's helping me build up some confidence. I've been programming for quite a number of years. My day jobs for the last several years…
> This is probably not something I should talk too much about on a venue filled with potential employers or coworkers.
Having concerns about your abilities and taking steps to improve them is a very positive trait.
> OSS is something I want to be a core part of my job, because I use and appreciate it so much.
I'll challenge you to find a single job on those hiring threads where you won't be steeping neck-high in open source software. Whether you'll get to contribute back is a different issue, but if nothing else you'll gain loads of exposure that you can use to contribute on your own time.
> I'll go over to the two jobs threads from the other day and apply to some places. There were at least 3 or 4 that I would LOVE to work at.
Awesome! Good luck!
Re: College has been oversold
#248Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Making art is not honest work? Making crap art isn't.
Saying that the majority of "art" is crap is a very subjective opinion.
Are you claiming that there's an objective definition of "good art"? If so, let's see it.
In any event, "subjective" doesn't imply wrong.
Are you claiming that a majority of art is not crap? Does your argument avoid the "no true Scotsman" fallacy?
Re: College has been oversold
#249Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except that the case of Jobs is a perfect illustration of the grandparent's point: he dropped out of Reed College because he couldn't justify the expense to himself. He audited the calligraphy class, and slept on floors and couches. So he didn't go $100k into debt to take those classes with the expectation it would land him a good job; he sat in on them because he was interested in them but recognized they were a bad…
I think Josh's point is that Jobs' success came from the inspiration he got from his calligraphy class— not an engineering degree. He was never really an engineer. And I agree with him: many tech-oriented sites tend to think the only jobs that (should) exist end in "Science" or "Engineering". Does the entertainment industry not fuel economic growth? Would Netflix be popular if we didn't have movies and television sho…
If Jobs' success was based off of a calligraphy class then everyone who took calligraphy classes would be wildly successful, I should be wildly successful!
I guarantee you that if everyone had science/engineering degrees, Netflix would still be streaming movies and television. Just because I am going to school for an engineering degree doesn't mean I won't take a job in the music industry (nor do I need a formal system of education to play good music)
It seems like you've never talked to an engineer, as math is very highly regarded in the engineering world as it allows engineers to do most of what they do. On top of that design is also very highly regarded in the engineering world, as most of the things 'created' by engineers are 'designed' by engineers. Your senseless disconnect between science and math (and strong connection between math and liberal arts) is a whole other debate that I don't ever want to go into.
I can't even imagine hearing a respectful engineer talk down on computer science (or software engineers), I haven't met an engineer that has done this yet. In fact, most of the engineers I know started with computer science and then moved onto things such as ex. electrical engineering or mechanical engineering (and even vice-versa!)
You are also making the assumption that the entertainment industry is built off of people with liberal arts degrees, when it is exactly the opposite. The people who built the entertainment industry were people who had a burning passion.
I'm trying to make the point that design and engineering are practically the same thing.
Re: College has been oversold
#250Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Making art is not honest work? Making crap art isn't.
Saying that the majority of "art" is crap is a very subjective opinion.
Are you claiming that there's an objective definition of "good art"? If so, let's see it.
In any event, "subjective" doesn't imply wrong.
Are you claiming that a majority of art is not crap? Does your argument avoid the "no true Scotsman" fallacy?