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Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

deno.com

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Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#91

Post by kypro »

leeoniya wrote: post #20
lucacasonato wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> server-side rendering for each request in V8 might be more expensive to host than client side rendering in V8? Expensive not in money terms, but in user experience. Also: if you are doing e-commerce, 100ms added latency can cost you 7-8% in conversions. Spending 5% more on hosting to do SSR just makes economic sense.

> 100ms added latency can cost you 7-8% in conversions i hear this metric (or something equally absurd) cited frequently and have never seen it to be true in my own experience. i guess if you have to load a product page with 100 images (or assets) and each has 100ms network latency, then it will add up to much more than that. but 100ms for a single interaction or network request (e.g. process payment POST) is not goi…

I've worked in e-commerce for a while and have heard similar stated from time to time and seemed like someone was trying to fit a linear line over what's almost certainly an s-curve distribution.

At lower latencies no one is going to leave your site because it takes 1200ms instead of 1000ms to fully load a page. But at some point almost everyone is going to leave your site rather than wait.

I also find these stats really confusing because whenever someone talks to me about site performance they're always talking about a different metric (server response time, first paint, time to interactive, etc). If you're first paint is quick then users aren't going to care if content half way off the page doesn't load instantly.

I've always tried to focus on how fast things feel rather than worrying too much about specific metrics. If you can just get something (ideally the important bit(s)) to load really fast a site can feel extremely fast even if it's mostly just an illusion. Users like to click things and see stuff happening. It's things like reloading the page when adding items to cart then making them wait on a white screen for multiple that increases bounce times as abandoned carts in my experience. Making add to cart buttons an ajax request probably helps far more than making the page load 200ms faster.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#92

Post by hombre_fatal »

leeoniya wrote: post #20
lucacasonato wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> server-side rendering for each request in V8 might be more expensive to host than client side rendering in V8? Expensive not in money terms, but in user experience. Also: if you are doing e-commerce, 100ms added latency can cost you 7-8% in conversions. Spending 5% more on hosting to do SSR just makes economic sense.

> 100ms added latency can cost you 7-8% in conversions i hear this metric (or something equally absurd) cited frequently and have never seen it to be true in my own experience. i guess if you have to load a product page with 100 images (or assets) and each has 100ms network latency, then it will add up to much more than that. but 100ms for a single interaction or network request (e.g. process payment POST) is not goi…

I could see the 100ms/7% impact coming into play for a super impulsive shopper going from page to page compulsively until they pull the trigger on a product. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a lot of Amazon's business—people buying things they had not set out to buy.

Makes less sense the smaller an e-shop gets since the consumer already needed intent to shop there. If I know I already want product X on Shop Y today, 10 second load times are rather inconsequential.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#93

Post by hombre_fatal »

upupandup wrote: post #5

Quoted post unavailable.

That's quite an edit.

My advice is to just ask your question and don't overanalyze the tone of the responses as their tone is related to their interpretation of your own tone/honesty. But if the responses seem weird or unfair to you, it's useful to ask yourself how you might have come off the wrong way.

gherkinnn's response sheds light on why your question could have been misinterpreted as, for example, low effort.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#94

Post by pseudosavant »

la_fayette wrote: post #53

Maybe I am getting all wrong, but this sounds like PHP.

And not everything, just many things, was wrong with PHP. No build step was the norm for PHP the last time I wrote much of it. I love things like this, ES modules, etc, that make it easier to have build-step-free apps.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#95

Post by ponyous »

I listened to a conference talk[0] where Dylan talks about fresh framework and he says quoting: "We have this little project at Deno ... it's not a web framework that we're really promoting or you know intending to utilise long term. More of kind of a demo of what this post unix web frameworks might look like"

Is it worth investing in this now? It really put me off.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBcFJmQ6UVM at 15:50

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#96

Post by MatthiasPortzel »

skybrian wrote: post #50

For those websites that can use it (like a blog), it seems like static site generation would be better, to cache the database requests? Then you can run in the free tier of Netlify or using GitHub pages, for example. Or to do the opposite, for a single-player website where there aren't any server requests to cache, a client-only website can run offline. Fresh looks good for multi-player websites that are unavoidably…

I similarly wish Fresh did full server side generation. Even Next.JS has a tool to export as a static site. Maybe it will come to Fresh at some point, or maybe it’s there and just not well documented.

I’m using NanoJSX with Deno to render JSX on the server and spit the result into a file, but I’m having to write a lot of SSG stuff myself, (like logic to loop over files).

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#97

Post by la_fayette »

tdy721 wrote: post #75
la_fayette wrote: post #53

Maybe I am getting all wrong, but this sounds like PHP.

Yes, but the templates are written in JSX. No quoting nightmares, nesting is a breeze, the server side APIs speak like the browser ones, and it's really fast. With deno.dev hosting on the edge, it's server side like php, but way better. I used to like WordPress, now I love Deno.

thx for your comment, as i said i might get all wrong. Still think PHP template engines like Twig are well designed and make you highly productive. Personally, I feel JSX is a code smell, as it mixes UI snippets with code. But this is maybe my old school software engineering attitude. I am just waiting for the next OSCommerce package written in JSX...

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#98

Post by dsherret »

ponyous wrote: post #95

I listened to a conference talk[0] where Dylan talks about fresh framework and he says quoting: "We have this little project at Deno ... it's not a web framework that we're really promoting or you know intending to utilise long term. More of kind of a demo of what this post unix web frameworks might look like" Is it worth investing in this now? It really put me off. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBcFJmQ6UVM at…

Fresh has had a lot of development since then. See the "Production Ready" section in blog post for the latest thoughts:

> Fresh 1.0 is a stable release and can be relied upon for production use. Much of Deno's public web services use Fresh (for example the site you are reading this blog post on now!). This does not mean we are done with Fresh. We have many more ideas to improve user and developer experience.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#99

Post by MatthiasPortzel »

hrdwdmrbl wrote: post #27

This sounds very similar to Hotwire https://hotwired.dev/ Can someone who has used at least one of those chime in?

Hotwire and LiveWire make a network request to allow the server to re-render the component on user interaction.

Fresh, in contrast, does SSR and then hydrates the components on page load, making it much more similar to React with SSR or Next.JS.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#100

Post by jonny_eh »

peterangular wrote: post #33
likortera wrote: post #21

Am I the only one that think nowadays anything can be called "full stack"? For me "full stack" is something like Rails, Laravel, Django, etc. Or is it just being able to run code on the server enough to be "full stack"? I'm missing the translations system, the validations, the background jobs, the authentication system, authorization helpers, email sending, ORM or data access layer, testing framework, CSRF and relate…

Node/JS solutions typically don't come "batteries included." "Fullstack" means different things depending on the ecosystem and for Node devs it means "hey there's a solution for the front-end and back-end." Totally understand about Django, Laravel etc. but typically if I'm building in Node/JS I'm pulling all of that extra stuff in from npm piecing it together myself.

By this definition then Next.js is full-stack, but I don't think even they claim that.
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