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Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

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Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can’t imagine anything LESS scummy than helping save the lives of those babies who are now likely very glad they were born By the same token, wouldn't it be unethical to not have as many kids as possible all the time? After all, those kids will be glad that they were born.

Not conceiving children is clearly not the same as killing them after conception. That said, there are plenty of people that would agree with the idea that we should have as many babies as we can. Utilitarians for example, and many traditional Christians.

> Not conceiving children is clearly not the same as killing them after conception.

I don't think anyone is advocating killing children.

Aborting a fetus, sure, but a fetus isn't a child any more than an acorn is an oak tree.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#182
post #154
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you find killing a new born baby reprehensible? If no this is a _very_ minority view you have. If yes what is the difference between the new born to a 9 month old fetus in the womb? Then what about an 8 month old? Most would protect it too against abortion. And so on. A compromising time limit solution for which elective abortions before is permitted and after is forbidden is the only pragmatic solution.

We have 6 fertilised eggs somewhere in a freezer (IVF), if we throw them in the garbage bin, is that murder/abortion?

Many pro-life would say yes. The pro-life stance on IVF is to only fertilize as many eggs as you will bring to term.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does a black person require their every biological process be maintained by the body of another? If yes, then OK your comparison makes sense.

There are plenty of birthed people that are in that state. Mostly infants, but many with developmental disabilities or other conditions. Eugenics had the same idea. Do you want To be the arbiter of the minimal set of bodily functions required to be human? What if you end up in a state with one less than the value chosen, should someone else be able to decide whether you live or die?

There is no "one less than the value chosen" in this case - the embryo is 100% reliant on the mother for every single possible life function - circulation, respiration, digestion, homeostasis, everything. The only "babies" that are "born" in that state are early miscarriages. This is the slippery slope fallacy writ large, in the same way as comparing a minority to an embryo was.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one has ever been sad that they weren't born. "How would you feel if you weren't born?" is a nonsensical question.

You do realize you can feel before you are born, right? Verbal communication and feeling are not the same. It is well established that newborns remember the sounds they heard prior to birth.

[deleted]

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given the technology, there’s no reason a fetus couldn’t live at any stage of development This cannot be true, and just because a fetus could live does not mean the quality of life is worth living. Not to mention the staggering costs of NICU healthcare. The numbers I was asking about were specifically post 20 week, as a reply to parkingrift’s concerns.

Babies survive outside the womb prior to 20 weeks. That will continue to go down as technology progresses. What does cost have to do with whether someone is a person?

Sorry, I misread “given the technology” as today’s technology. But then I do not see how the concept of viability is legal fiction. Medical science can keep fetuses born after x weeks alive with y probability, and that y is near 0 or 0 before x weeks.

Cost had to do with practicality. It does not seem reasonable to expect a society to invest $10M into raising a 1 week old fetus that will need 24/7 support to live. Point being that there are limits real life and a purely philosophical exercise is not useful.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#186
post #154
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you find killing a new born baby reprehensible? If no this is a _very_ minority view you have. If yes what is the difference between the new born to a 9 month old fetus in the womb? Then what about an 8 month old? Most would protect it too against abortion. And so on. A compromising time limit solution for which elective abortions before is permitted and after is forbidden is the only pragmatic solution.

We have 6 fertilised eggs somewhere in a freezer (IVF), if we throw them in the garbage bin, is that murder/abortion?

Let's just say that it is murder/abortion of 6 fertilized eggs. However, many people are fine with such murder, as they are with the murder of lettuce leaves.

It seems the issue is always what is being murdered. The more human-like the thing being murdered is, the more outrageous it is. Plan B, not so outrageous because it's just a few cells. 20+ weeks, people are getting outraged. A dog? Pretty human-like, people don't like dogs being murdered.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this completely ignores the moral issues of later term abortions. I am an atheist, and I am disturbed by the idea of a voluntary abortion after 20 weeks. Voluntary meaning no medical necessity. I think Republicans have latched onto this issue and Christianity in America has adopted it, but there is far more at play here than just Christian nationalism.

What issue? What are the numbers on non medical necessity abortions post 20 weeks? Why 20 weeks? Are the voting populace or politicians knowledgeable enough about pregnancy to be able to legislate these things without exposing doctors and women to unnecessary legal risk? And again, back to the numbers, does the is even need legislating? Are women or doctors haphazardly running around killing perfectly viable fetuses…

Some numbers here: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/06/24/what-the-da...

1% of the abortions occur in week 21 or later, of a total of 625.000-930.000 abortion per year. So about 6250-9300 abortion per year in week 21 or later. Assuming a number of these are health related, "livestyle" abortions is probably less than 9300 per year.

To compare, US had about 19384 gun related homicides in 2020, so that problem is larger than the abortion one. (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081)

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#188
post #154
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you find killing a new born baby reprehensible? If no this is a _very_ minority view you have. If yes what is the difference between the new born to a 9 month old fetus in the womb? Then what about an 8 month old? Most would protect it too against abortion. And so on. A compromising time limit solution for which elective abortions before is permitted and after is forbidden is the only pragmatic solution.

We have 6 fertilised eggs somewhere in a freezer (IVF), if we throw them in the garbage bin, is that murder/abortion?

Because of this ethical question the freezing of fertilized eggs is illegal in Germany. So cautious people can come to this conclusion.

But this is the other extreme endpoint. With "a compromising time limit solution" I meant something like the around 15 weeks common in European Countries.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#189
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a wedge issue where neither side will give any ground, which makes it exploitable. If you figure out a way to tie a wedge issue to the rest of your political platform you're virtually guaranteed support from one side or another. IMO one side has been much, much better at exploiting this fact and has has achieved great power despite representing less than a plurality of voters.

It’s a divisive issue because it represents fundamentally different world views. As an asian, the idea that the government can’t regulate abortion, which is prevalent among a large minority of Democrats these days, is remarkable. Even if abortion was a moral issue, and not about preserving human life, nothing precludes states from legislating morality. It’s illustrative to compare to Japan or Germany, which have “lib…

> But in both countries it’s still technically illegal.

It would be nonsensical for activists in Japan to spend time advocating that abortion become technically legal without regard to practical situations where it could be performed.

This is essentialist reasoning ascribing some kind of soul to the law, which feels out of character for you. I suppose you could argue that sodomy is 'technically illegal' in many states, but that Lawrence & Baker carved out situations where it is tolerated.

Does the technicality of being prosecuted for non-consensual act of sodomy vs. an explicit sexual assault crime actually mean anything to the perpetrator if the penalty is the same?

> And which side “represents less than a plurality of voters?” Party affiliation and political ideology are far from an exact match. That's why there are a handful of Republican governors posturing to uphold abortion rights.

Abortion is often a singular issue for pro-life advocates, who have had a particular motivation to mobilize built up over the past half-century. I personally have met a handful of people who hated everything about the Republican platform except for its stance on abortion, and that was the sole issue that decided their vote. Polarization has progressed to the point that there's only one

The pro-choice movement doesn't have the same fervor at this point, and I think a backlash is not going to be rapid due to a combination of: - those who are pro-choice but happy to rationalize that it's now a state level issue and that the reversal of Roe v Wade was simply the correction of improper judicial activism. - defeatist stances by those who feel disenfranchised and that voting is ineffective, particularly when done strategically to 'win' instead of based on a hard ideal - those who would vote for abortion rights if a ballot was set in front of them but who personally find abortion repugnant or deserving of severe restriction

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

It's not killing someone. A fetus isn't a person. > I can’t imagine anything LESS scummy than helping save the lives of those babies who are now likely very glad they were born So would it be ethical to rape someone and force them to give birth? Because the babies would be happy to be born and experiencing life? That's the same logic you're using. A fetus isn't a person. It's not sentient. It doesn't have hopes and d…

And you just prove his point:

There won't be any middle ground since you already think fetuses are not "human beings" .

Let's not use religion and go with science. Which biologist, scientist, or doctor is willing to acknowledge and let alone prove that a fetus (unborn human per oxford dictionary) is not human? Take in consideration that the whole scientific community has to acknowledge these assumptions after lots of tests, etc...

Even news outlets are broadcasting women who are saying "hookup culture would be decimated" meaning they are using abortions as birth control.

There's no angle (scientific vor otherwise) to defend abortions other than convenience and lack of accountability.

R vs. W literally hands on the vote to states. California, NY, etc... won't change their policies.

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