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Flurry of Calls Among Saudi Staff and Spy Coincided with 9/11 Hijackers’ Arrival

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Re: Flurry of Calls Among Saudi Staff and Spy Coincided with 9/11 Hijackers’ Arrival

#111

Post by boomboomsubban »

reducesuffering wrote: post #105
boomboomsubban wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, there's nothing wrong with disliking Israel or liking your religion, and "cursed be the Jews" is racist. No one is advocating bombing/blockading other political groups with racist ideas though. Plus, it addressed the most important word "slogan." Saying terrible things isn't justification for what we've done to Yemen. The argument has no legs without needing to further turn it into a straw man.

You admit they’re a racist group and then say my “argument has no legs” while failing to address the crux of the issue. Yemeni civil war is started by Houthi attacks on the Government of Yemen. Immense casualties on both sides with civilians caught in crossfire. Iran supporting Houthi rebels undemocratically coup’ing the Yemeni Government. Saudi supporting existing Yemeni government. Do you honestly propose the gover…

>You admit they’re a racist group and then say my “argument has no legs” while failing to address the crux of the issue.

I don't think saying racist things justifies bombing someone. Worse, I don't think you should be blockaded because your neighbor is racist.

>Do you honestly propose the government just lay down everything and let Houthi takeover as another Taliban?

The undemocratic government was free to resist, but foreign intervention likely made the situation far worse.

And let's not pretend that Yemen wasn't already "another Taliban." Even before the civil war, the US had regularly launched drone strikes in Yemen for over a decade. Which is the kind of shit that leads a group professing "death to America" to gain power.

I am not responsible for what I consider to be abhorrent acts by the Houthi. I am supposed to be responsible for the acts of the US government.

>obviously shit situation with no easy answers because of the slimy regional powers.

Dropping billions in arms on the situation only makes things worse.

Re: Flurry of Calls Among Saudi Staff and Spy Coincided with 9/11 Hijackers’ Arrival

#112

Post by sofixa »

reducesuffering wrote: post #105
boomboomsubban wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, there's nothing wrong with disliking Israel or liking your religion, and "cursed be the Jews" is racist. No one is advocating bombing/blockading other political groups with racist ideas though. Plus, it addressed the most important word "slogan." Saying terrible things isn't justification for what we've done to Yemen. The argument has no legs without needing to further turn it into a straw man.

You admit they’re a racist group and then say my “argument has no legs” while failing to address the crux of the issue. Yemeni civil war is started by Houthi attacks on the Government of Yemen. Immense casualties on both sides with civilians caught in crossfire. Iran supporting Houthi rebels undemocratically coup’ing the Yemeni Government. Saudi supporting existing Yemeni government. Do you honestly propose the gover…

> undemocratically coup’ing the Yemeni Government

I think you're missing some context here. Democracy doesn't have anything to do with anything in Yemen. It was a dictatorship, and when the dictator retired there was an agreement for him to pass power to his vice president, who was afterwards elected in a single-candidate election. Meanwhile the Houthis were facing religious prosecution for years, were against this, and rebelled. Both sides are pretty terrible on the "democracy" axis so no need to involve it and imply that the Yemeni Government (Hadi) have democratic legitimacy. Bashar al-Assad was also elected, does he have democratic legitimacy over the various Syrian opposition parties?

Re: Flurry of Calls Among Saudi Staff and Spy Coincided with 9/11 Hijackers’ Arrival

#113

Post by bayesian_horse »

mardifoufs wrote: post #109
bayesian_horse wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My terse one-liner was obviously not implying Saudi Arabia is a nation of saints or even better than Russia in any regard. One argument one can make is that the situation in Ukraine is worse from a European perspective because it is so much closer and the economic and political ties are much tighter. The Trump administration "fully supported" KSA, Biden does not btw.

Yeah again sorry about my rant! Id say that me being a muslim from the MENA region is probably why I care as much, just like europeans care more about ukraine. The issue is when that (geographic?) biais is not acknowledged, so we get tons of downplaying or people arguing that it's actually just not as bad. Again, that's more of a observation on the thread in general ,not aimed at your comment in particular! Though I'…

Biden already called Saudi Arabia a pariah when he took office and he'll probably continue calling them out on quite a few things. But in general, there are bigger problems and there's not a lot to be improved just from rethoric.

Re: Flurry of Calls Among Saudi Staff and Spy Coincided with 9/11 Hijackers’ Arrival

#114

Post by bayesian_horse »

toolz wrote: post #77
bayesian_horse wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As well he should. Iraq was one of the major suspects, especially that early. Having those plans, and preferably to never use them, is the very job of the defense department.

What are you talking about? There never was, nor has there ever been evidence that Hussein orchestrated 9/11 attacks and Rumsfeld mentions targeting him specifically even in light of only having evidence that bin Laden was involved. Plane hits pentagon 9:37am by 2:40pm Rumsfeld is quoted in notes > "best info fast. Judge whether good enough hit S.H." – meaning Saddam Hussein – "at same time. Not only UBL" – the initi…

I didn't say there was. But when the culprits weren't clear, Iraq was a legitimate suspect for a time.

Re: Flurry of Calls Among Saudi Staff and Spy Coincided with 9/11 Hijackers’ Arrival

#115

Post by toolz »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #114
toolz wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? There never was, nor has there ever been evidence that Hussein orchestrated 9/11 attacks and Rumsfeld mentions targeting him specifically even in light of only having evidence that bin Laden was involved. Plane hits pentagon 9:37am by 2:40pm Rumsfeld is quoted in notes > "best info fast. Judge whether good enough hit S.H." – meaning Saddam Hussein – "at same time. Not only UBL" – the initi…

I didn't say there was. But when the culprits weren't clear, Iraq was a legitimate suspect for a time.

Let me get this straight. There was very little evidence and the evidence we did have didn't point to Iraq, but they were a legitimate suspect?

You have to realize how this sounds, but I'll keep an open mind to interpreting what you're saying hospitably if you'd like to explain your reasoning.

Re: Flurry of Calls Among Saudi Staff and Spy Coincided with 9/11 Hijackers’ Arrival

#116

Post by bayesian_horse »

toolz wrote: post #115
bayesian_horse wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say there was. But when the culprits weren't clear, Iraq was a legitimate suspect for a time.

Let me get this straight. There was very little evidence and the evidence we did have didn't point to Iraq, but they were a legitimate suspect? You have to realize how this sounds, but I'll keep an open mind to interpreting what you're saying hospitably if you'd like to explain your reasoning.

Maybe "suspect" means more to you than it does to me.

Re: Flurry of Calls Among Saudi Staff and Spy Coincided with 9/11 Hijackers’ Arrival

#117

Post by toolz »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #116
toolz wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me get this straight. There was very little evidence and the evidence we did have didn't point to Iraq, but they were a legitimate suspect? You have to realize how this sounds, but I'll keep an open mind to interpreting what you're saying hospitably if you'd like to explain your reasoning.

Maybe "suspect" means more to you than it does to me.

Maybe, that's why I'm hoping you'll explain what you mean.

Re: Flurry of Calls Among Saudi Staff and Spy Coincided with 9/11 Hijackers’ Arrival

#118

Post by q1w2 »

Geonode wrote: post #10
gleenn wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems so wild that part of the US government was so happy to start wars in irrelevant countries despite the fact that it appears pretty obvious the real perpetrators hit the Pentagon with a plane. I wonder how conversations go between people in both those departments/branches.

Yeah I think Afghanistan was just a place they could safely drop a lot of expensive bombs. Iraq, and later see Libya, Syria, and others, ongoing, are places where they don't want strong dictators who are against the international monetary monopoly. Just look at the shenanigans African dictators get up to and we just send trainers, because it's the only effective solution over time.

> Afghanistan was just a place they could safely drop a lot of expensive bombs

Afghanistan is literally where Al-Quaeda was based. It wasn't even the US alone - NATO allies also joined the war in Afghanistan because of the obvious connection with 9-11.

Re: Flurry of Calls Among Saudi Staff and Spy Coincided with 9/11 Hijackers’ Arrival

#119

Post by q1w2 »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #114
toolz wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? There never was, nor has there ever been evidence that Hussein orchestrated 9/11 attacks and Rumsfeld mentions targeting him specifically even in light of only having evidence that bin Laden was involved. Plane hits pentagon 9:37am by 2:40pm Rumsfeld is quoted in notes > "best info fast. Judge whether good enough hit S.H." – meaning Saddam Hussein – "at same time. Not only UBL" – the initi…

I didn't say there was. But when the culprits weren't clear, Iraq was a legitimate suspect for a time.

It was never unclear. The Administration knew the same day that it was Al-Quaeda.

One of the stewardesses on the first plane to hit the tower called and told the control tower the seats the hijackers were in (2A & B), which led to their identification and connections to al-quaeda - same DAY.

Re: Flurry of Calls Among Saudi Staff and Spy Coincided with 9/11 Hijackers’ Arrival

#120

Post by q1w2 »

mardifoufs wrote: post #89
bayesian_horse wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't Putin.

What's going on in Yemen is pretty similar to what's going on in ukraine right now. And the KSA also has a putin-like tendency of sending death squads to murder international opposition. The only reason why they seem to not be as bad for westerners is because middle eastern lives are given almost 0 value here in the west. So you'll always get some hand wavy rationalisation to justify not doing anything about the KSA,…

The fact that your comment doesn't include the word Iran anywhere tells me something.
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