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Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

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Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#261

Post by gostsamo »

simonh wrote: post #223
gostsamo wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the whole thread is trying to find plausible reasons why the population does not recover after disasters. The elves are leaving and gondorians have issue reproducing. Everyone else should've been totally capable of taking those big chunks of land and building new societies there. Orcs should've just made them build more warlike cultures and not just hide, because orcs are raiders, not an well organized force whi…

There's a lot more than just Orcs. Bilbo and the Dwarves almost get eaten by trolls in The Hobbit. There's intelligent giant spiders. The occasional Dragon. But frankly Orcs are bad enough. They're cunning, actually genuinely intelligent tool using predators. They're mainly carnivorous by preference, but can probably survive on stuff that would make you sicken and die if they have to. As soon as a rural population ge…

The shire is not special. Nothing before the adventure of Bilbo made anyone think that it should be kept secret. The hobbits are just reclusive, however, there are travelers passing through and Bree is on an actual crossroad.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#262

Post by ghaff »

moomin wrote: post #235

My take has always been that there have been industrial revolutions, but they’ve been suppressed. Tolkien’s description of evil is “the fires and forges of Mordor”.

After thinking about it a bit, the major obstacle I run into with having a coherent explanation for the lack of industrialization is that Mordor did industrialize at some level. And it doesn't take that much of an industrialization advantage to be able to overwhelm opponents.

ADDED: That said, maybe Mordor was just starting to industrialize and maybe wasn't quite at the point where it could conquer all given magic etc.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#263

Post by jcranberry »

Maursault wrote: post #137

Seems clear the author: 1) knows next to nothing about Middle-Earth or Tolkien's larger work and honestly admits it, though continues to make sweeping generalizations about a subject they admittedly know little about; 2) knows nothing about classics, ancient history nor history of technology except perhaps bullet points gleaned from a pop documentary, iow, author displays extremely pedestrian and shallow knowledge or…

I was interested in the topic but the snide tone was very difficult to get through.

If I had read it when I was much younger I might have enjoyed it, but I've read so much writing with a similar tone that at this point I consider comes off as cliched. Especially in combination with the verbal sparring with strawmen device.

I was able to get through it mostly, but my motivation decreased as I increasingly got the feeling that the author was researching in service of a pre-determined point rather than doing an "investigation" as claimed in the beginning.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#264

Post by jltsiren »

mcv wrote: post #220

For someone who hates the Lord of the Rings, that's surprisingly well researched. And yet, a lot of his reasoning doesn't make sense. Because population levels in Middle Earth are far lower than in 18th century England, labour costs should be high? Population levels in Middle Earth strike me as closer to those of Siberia or the eastern European steppe (perhaps with the Ural in the role of the Misty Mountains?) than t…

The parts of Middle-earth we see in the books are empty, because Sauron has been fighting a war against the Numenoreans and their allies for 2000 years. He has also been winning the war.

Northern Eriador, roughly the area between Shire and Rivendell, used to be Arnor. The northern counterpart to Gondor was first weakened in civil wars and then destroyed by the armies of the Witch King. People don't return to the area, because they believe the ruins of the cities are haunted.

The Misty Mountains are infested with orcs. Few people live near the mountains, except in Dunland in the south.

Anduin runs between the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood. Few people are willing to live near them. Particularly because Sauron built his fortress in the southern Mirkwood and spent most of the last 2000 years there. Further south, the lands west of the river are near Lorien and Fangorn, and people are afraid of the beings living in those forests. On the eastern side, the lands between Mirkwood and Mordor are either barren or were ruined in the battles at the end of the Second Age.

Osgiliath, Minas Anor/Tirith, and Minas Ithil/Morgul used to be three great cities of Gondor. However, Minas Ithil was lost and Osgiliath abandoned long ago. At the end of the Third Age, most of the population of Gondor lives in the coastal areas protected by the White Mountains and Minas Tirith. Pelargir is a major port near the mouth of Anduin, and Dol Amroth is another major city.

We know little of the lands to the east and to the south, except that they were capable of sending large armies against Gondor.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#265

Post by mcv »

alibrarydweller wrote: post #192
dylan604 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weren't orcs made by Sauron rather than being a natural species though? So they were never really born in the normal mammalian method.

You might be thinking of the "genetically enhanced" Uruk Hai orcs created by Saruman.

If I'm not mistaken, Melkor (Morgoth) created orcs by corrupting elves. Saruman created Uruk-Hai by breeding orcs with humans.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#266

Post by ghaff »

analog31 wrote: post #27
failrate wrote: post #2

My immediate thought is that the technium of Middle Earth did not develop like ours due to rhe ubiquity of magic. Indeed, it is in these books that the last lights of magic are fading, and the world is being given over to other powers. Imagine if there were like an additional physics sitting on top of ours, and its use was isolated to a few hereditary practitioners, and let us see if the mundanes can scraps together…

That strikes me as reasonable. With magic, they didn't need to invent things. They didn't need engineering. There's also the hint, at least from the movies, that Sauron and Sarumon could produce an unlimited supply slave labor.

Some of that plays into questions about why the Roman Empire didn't advance more technologically than it did. One of the explanations I've read is that, given ubiquitous slave labor, there was no need for labor saving devices which has been one of the drivers of industrialization.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#267

Post by KineticLensman »

simonh wrote: post #223
gostsamo wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the whole thread is trying to find plausible reasons why the population does not recover after disasters. The elves are leaving and gondorians have issue reproducing. Everyone else should've been totally capable of taking those big chunks of land and building new societies there. Orcs should've just made them build more warlike cultures and not just hide, because orcs are raiders, not an well organized force whi…

There's a lot more than just Orcs. Bilbo and the Dwarves almost get eaten by trolls in The Hobbit. There's intelligent giant spiders. The occasional Dragon. But frankly Orcs are bad enough. They're cunning, actually genuinely intelligent tool using predators. They're mainly carnivorous by preference, but can probably survive on stuff that would make you sicken and die if they have to. As soon as a rural population ge…

> The mission for the rangers isn't to militarily defend the region as a garrisoning force, it's to suppress any news or investigation of the Shire to keep it secret.

Reference please.

The Rangers do protect the Shire but there are no references to a 'secrecy' mission in the book IIRC.

There are main roads that pass nearby that are travelled at least by Dwarves and Elves. Frodo and the other hobbits themselves see Dwarves drinking at the Prancing Pony in Bree, where discussion of the Shire would undoubtedly have happened.

Saruman is also aware of the Shire, if only because Gandalf kept on about it.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#270

Post by KineticLensman »

picsao wrote: post #99
gostsamo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, the industrial revolution did not start in Siberia and it is proving only that it can't start in a world with so far removed population centers. Waterways are the cheapest transport option and source of water for the crops, yet nobody lives next to the biggest river around. The only possible reason would be if there is nobody to live there.

War with ents is my most likely explanation, most of middle earth is the frontiers in inter species warfare.

I think Tolkien would have mentioned this somewhere. The Ents are notably isolationist.
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