Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

featherlessbipeds.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 428 posts

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#191

Post by pm90 »

xg15 wrote: post #146
Barrin92 wrote: post #16

The industrial revolution is in the book, it's the actual antagonist of the story. Tolkien was a devout Catholic distributist and Hobbingen was his ideal Catholic community of self reliant Hobbits who answer to wizards and kings, not to factory floor managers and administrators.

This. Also, there are a few moments scattered throughout the book where the hobbits get to eavesdrop on conversations between Sauron's orcs and we gatch a few glimpses of Mordor's internal organisation. The tone of those conversations always struck me as surprisingly "modern" compared to the "epic medieval" style of the rest of the book: Orcs apparently have ID numbers, they complain about arrogant bosses, at some po…

Not that it matters but I would argue that this sort of organization is strictly required to operate at the scale of armies in question.

The wars in the previous ages are described as being a bit more “equal” suggesting there were equally large hosts of humans/elves though, but maybe they’re able to organize “because magic” (e.g. elves may benefit from lembas bread allowing them to not have to worry about supply lines like the orcs).

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#192

Post by alibrarydweller »

dylan604 wrote: post #80
gostsamo wrote: post #68

Something not mentioned in the article: Middle Earth is depopulated. Without large market, it does not make sense to produce at scale, nor you will have the capital to do it. The main characters travel hundreds of kilometers down the biggest river around and they don't encounter other vessels or a populated settlement until they reach Minas Tirith. And I'm not even mentioning the missing cities and villages in the in…

Weren't orcs made by Sauron rather than being a natural species though? So they were never really born in the normal mammalian method.

You might be thinking of the "genetically enhanced" Uruk Hai orcs created by Saruman.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#193

Post by jorvi »

mellavora wrote: post #173
thelittleone wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only Tolkien wrote another story where the industrial revolution in Middle Earth (as you describe it) occurs, along with a fellowship that brings it down and returns Middle Earth to it's former glory.

This is in LORT. Remember when the hobbits return to the Shire at the end, and have to set things straight?

Kind of criminal that I have to scroll this far down to see someone mention Saruman industrializing the Shire.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#194

Post by oDot »

timoth3y wrote: post #190

The article presents an engineering answer to s sociological question. The reason technology did not advance in Middle Earth is because innovation was not rewarded. Innovation and experimentation were punished. Mine a little too deeply? You awaken a balrog that kills you an everyone you have ever known. Want to expand into that verdant area across the river? You didn't expect giant spiders, did you? Build a disruptiv…

Compared to the very lucrative job of digging for coal...

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#195

Post by pm90 »

samus wrote: post #141
chx wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funnily enough, this is also a myth. You are quoting Letter #131. But you are likely quoting secondary or tertiary sources and forgot the rest. Here's what you quote: > Also – and here I hope I shall not sound absurd – I was from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own (bound up with its tongue and soil), not of the quality that I sought, and found (as an ingredient)…

Tolkien's work is a solution in search of a problem though. It's unsurprising to conclude that English has so few stories if he discards all its Germanic and Skandinavian heritage!

But clearly thats not strictly “English” or “British”. The mythos of Nationalism was strong in Tolkiens time (which sorta continue to this day). Every “Nation” needed a homogeneous population with a shared culture and strong bonds that bind them together; one way of doing this was to appeal to an origin myth.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#196

Post by baud147258 »

hef19898 wrote: post #106
gostsamo wrote: post #68

Something not mentioned in the article: Middle Earth is depopulated. Without large market, it does not make sense to produce at scale, nor you will have the capital to do it. The main characters travel hundreds of kilometers down the biggest river around and they don't encounter other vessels or a populated settlement until they reach Minas Tirith. And I'm not even mentioning the missing cities and villages in the in…

The author lost me at tge first paragraph: he never read it, and still he wonders why, in medieval fanatsy setting, there are no pump guns.

> in _medieval_ fanatsy setting, there are no pump guns

well, if there was pump guns, it wouldn't be a medieval setting anymore, as you need some industrial base to manufacture them, industrial base which isn't exactly compatible with a medieval setting. Not to say you can't have guns in fantasy (Pillars of Eternity and Warhammer fantasy come to mind), but they are usually more primitive.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#197

Post by adhesive_wombat »

HelloNurse wrote: post #156
hef19898 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because during the time of the musket there were no pump guns neither. EDIT: It took quite some time between the early days of the industrial revolution and the first semi-automatic guns. Ignoring LOTR for a minute, if in story taking place in the 17th century the question of "why didn't X use a colt .45" is easily answered, because it wasn't invented yet.

But many parties are sparsely but explicitly described as making and using fantastically advanced marvels of somewhat magical technology in ancient times, some of which are still around like Sauron's Rings. Probably the most honest reason to not have guns in Middle-Earth is that only stupid orcs, not the elves and dwarves who could easily develop them as school projects, would be interested in such tasteless weapons.

I don't think all the Kingdoms of Men would have turned their noses up at a few cartloads of nice Dwarven culverin, regardless of what the Dwarves themselves (or those snooty elves) thought of them.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#198

Post by tomrod »

oDot wrote: post #194
timoth3y wrote: post #190

The article presents an engineering answer to s sociological question. The reason technology did not advance in Middle Earth is because innovation was not rewarded. Innovation and experimentation were punished. Mine a little too deeply? You awaken a balrog that kills you an everyone you have ever known. Want to expand into that verdant area across the river? You didn't expect giant spiders, did you? Build a disruptiv…

Compared to the very lucrative job of digging for coal...

It may not be lucrative now, but it was needed to launch the industrial revolution.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#199

Post by rsecora »

There was an industrial revolution, but it was being developed at Isengard/Orthanc (saruman tower) and at Barar Dur.

The middle earth kingdoms (Rivendel, Gordon, Rohan), were feudal domains with little incentive to change.

Fortunately for the kingdoms, their counterparts were also corrupted totalitarian regimes without balance of power.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#200

Post by [deleted] »

xg15 wrote: post #132
gostsamo wrote: post #68

Something not mentioned in the article: Middle Earth is depopulated. Without large market, it does not make sense to produce at scale, nor you will have the capital to do it. The main characters travel hundreds of kilometers down the biggest river around and they don't encounter other vessels or a populated settlement until they reach Minas Tirith. And I'm not even mentioning the missing cities and villages in the in…

> while the east participated in only one war 60 years ago that was done in a few weeks time. Note that when the fellowship passes through Lorien and Gondor, the ring war is already in full force, the fellowship just doesn't notice a lot of it. By the time they travel the Anduin, the river is considered a front line: Everything east of the river is already occupied by Sauron, while the areas directly west of it had b…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN