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Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

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Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#131

Post by Maursault »

hef19898 wrote: post #106
gostsamo wrote: post #68

Something not mentioned in the article: Middle Earth is depopulated. Without large market, it does not make sense to produce at scale, nor you will have the capital to do it. The main characters travel hundreds of kilometers down the biggest river around and they don't encounter other vessels or a populated settlement until they reach Minas Tirith. And I'm not even mentioning the missing cities and villages in the in…

The author lost me at tge first paragraph: he never read it, and still he wonders why, in medieval fanatsy setting, there are no pump guns.

If we took a walk through the author's home, I am certain we would find every piece of furniture was assembled without reading the instructions. Without bothering with the source material, the blogger has wrapped themselves in Tolkien's world and just wants to play.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#132

Post by xg15 »

gostsamo wrote: post #68

Something not mentioned in the article: Middle Earth is depopulated. Without large market, it does not make sense to produce at scale, nor you will have the capital to do it. The main characters travel hundreds of kilometers down the biggest river around and they don't encounter other vessels or a populated settlement until they reach Minas Tirith. And I'm not even mentioning the missing cities and villages in the in…

> while the east participated in only one war 60 years ago that was done in a few weeks time.

Note that when the fellowship passes through Lorien and Gondor, the ring war is already in full force, the fellowship just doesn't notice a lot of it.

By the time they travel the Anduin, the river is considered a front line: Everything east of the river is already occupied by Sauron, while the areas directly west of it had been evacuated. The book mentions this as one reason why the land is so deserted. (In addition to the long-term decline of Gondor that of course also happened, illustrated by the deserted lookout posts and ruins around the Argonath)

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#133

Post by hef19898 »

adhesive_wombat wrote: post #109
hef19898 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author lost me at tge first paragraph: he never read it, and still he wonders why, in medieval fanatsy setting, there are no pump guns.

So why are there no pump guns? Indeed, considering Tolkien's otherwise fully-defined universe (and the industrialisation in Mordor indicating that it can be done), it's a fun question, and they rather use the question as as springboard into quite a ranging discussion of the factors behind real Industrial Revolution rather than a comic-book-guy-style tear-down of LoTR specifically.

Because during the time of the musket there were no pump guns neither.

EDIT: It took quite some time between the early days of the industrial revolution and the first semi-automatic guns. Ignoring LOTR for a minute, if in story taking place in the 17th century the question of "why didn't X use a colt .45" is easily answered, because it wasn't invented yet.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#134

Post by samus »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #118
wetpaws wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read Tolkien notes, industrialisation and Mordor as a industrial empire was seriously considered as a major plot at some point.

Haven't read the notes, but shouldn't Mordor, being an autocracy without a recognizeable middle class and a very lean political system focused on war, have very cheap labor?

Very cheap, but probably also quite unsophisticated. They can make basic stuff, but they also don't need to produce finer things. The Orcs make up for it with their numbers, and Sauron cares about power, not about wealth.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#135

Post by t_mann »

> You would think it’s the middle ages, but human society has actually been around in Middle Earth about as long as it has in ours.

The time span since the Industrial Revolution compared to the history of humankind (let alone humanoids) is a tiny fraction, so even a tiny bit of variation in "about as long" can explain all the technological difference between rocket-propelled grenades and catapults.

But the actual reason why there is no modern technology in Middle Earth has of course nothing to do with economics or engineering, but with the personal tastes of Tolkien. He wanted to create a medieval saga, not sci-fi, and judging by its popularity, he did a great job.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#136

Post by Maursault »

gostsamo wrote: post #125
kqr wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but as someone else pointed out: industrialism was going strong in Mordor and maybe even other places?

Mordor was starting an industrial revolution which couldn't have been older than 60 years. Nothing explains the lack of development the previous few millemnia.

> Nothing explains the lack of development the previous few millemnia.

What explains the lack of development in ancient Sumer or ancient Rome? Wait a hot minute, because we have no idea and could have no idea if there was a small industrial revolution 10K years before ancient Sumer was a suburb. There would be no way to know if something like actual stainless steel was forged 60K years ago and the technology was lost. This is the problem with the blogger's armchair reasoning.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#137

Post by Maursault »

Seems clear the author: 1) knows next to nothing about Middle-Earth or Tolkien's larger work and honestly admits it, though continues to make sweeping generalizations about a subject they admittedly know little about; 2) knows nothing about classics, ancient history nor history of technology except perhaps bullet points gleaned from a pop documentary, iow, author displays extremely pedestrian and shallow knowledge or understanding of these vast subjects; 3) has taken at least one high school level course that included discussion of the Industrial Revolution; 4) likes guns, maybe owns a gun, has no great reason to own or use a gun other than childish affectation or perhaps even obsession.

It should also be said that the bloggers writing style is profusely insulting, almost like they're intentionally sabotaging anyone's ability to take them seriously, even if the question could have been interesting, instead the author indulged their immaturity.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#138

Post by V-2 »

bawolff wrote: post #66
r_harriso wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, there were cities before industrialization. Can’t remember the names of any right now… but I pretty sure there were a few.

Pretty sure that's most capital cities in europe. E.g. London, Rome

I suppose GP was being ironic ;)

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#139

Post by hef19898 »

wetpaws wrote: post #114
hef19898 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author lost me at tge first paragraph: he never read it, and still he wonders why, in medieval fanatsy setting, there are no pump guns.

If you read Tolkien notes, industrialisation and Mordor as a industrial empire was seriously considered as a major plot at some point.

>> was seriously considered as a major plot at some point

So the very out-of-universe answer is: Because Tolkien decided against it. So the better question, and also the one we can use some source material to answer, would be why Tolkien decided against it and wrote a classic fantasy story.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#140

Post by yyyk »

usrusr wrote: post #126
yyyk wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Internal warfare is caused by competing for the same resources. Politics is a sufficient condition. Perhaps Sauron would not tolerate 'independent' Orcs he can't use as canon fodder? >Again, the lack of people and trade on Anduin is a shocker for me. Yeah, it's the humans which are hardest to explain away. Some peasants should have thought 'We're tried of paying taxes to Gondor. We'll just move and no one can or wou…

You are giving far too much credit to internal conflict. Trapped between an empire of orcs on one side and those super racist elves on the other side (they certainly do consider humans a lower species, and how could you blame them given the humans' shocking lack of eternal youth), how much internal conflict can you expect? Even the most incompetent dictator wouldn't have a problem getting people to stand together.

I'm not sure I get you. We were talking about possible internal conflict within the Orcs. Not sure Sauron gets their automatic allegiance, and if he does not, that's all the reason we need. As for humans, I don't have a good explanation there at all.
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