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Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

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Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#371

Post by snowwrestler »

agust wrote: post #335
frumper wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're taking the approach that iOS browsers are just re-skinned safari, then Edge doesn't count as it's own browser on desktop.

Yes it does, that's a totally different situation. Edge chose to use Chromium as its engine, Microsoft takes part in its development, they are free to remove or add any component from it, and if ever they wanted to they would be free to fork it and drop it for another engine at any time. None of that is true for WebKit skins on iOS.

Microsoft were were quite transparent about being forced to adopt Chromium because of the prevalence of Electron apps on Windows.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#372

Post by afiori »

worik wrote: post #361
echelon wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most desktop computer users are able to use Firefox Desktop-using software engineers can write software for desktop users in a ton of different ways. There's so much freedom and there exist multiple mechanisms and platforms to deploy your code. Desktop-using software engineers are not free to choose how to deploy software to mobile audiences. They've got to go through Apple to reach 50+% of the US market. Apple set…

Apple/iOS is not the only mobile platform.

A duopoly has 90% of the problems of a monopoly.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#373

Post by TheTon »

danShumway wrote: post #180
innocenat wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want website to not be broken on Safari, the solution is to give developer without a Mac the ability to test on Safari. I wouldn't be able to fix my site if it's broken on Mac Safari if I don't have a Mac.

Can't upvote this enough. I support an Open web, I test my websites on Firefox and Chrome, I even occasionally do Edge testing, and I develop my websites often primarily in Firefox. But I'm not buying an iPhone or a laptop just to test websites, so I don't test in Safari. Every other browser has a way to emulate in Linux, I can even download free VMs from Microsoft to test IE11 in Windows (and Edge now runs in Linux)…

Do you test in Epiphany? That’s what the WebKit project recommends you do.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#374

Post by MBCook »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #355
snowwrestler wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People do not seem to understand how important it is to Google they they achieve full control of the browser end of the WWW. The blog post at the top of this thread talks about CVEs and other measures of resistance to 3rd party bad actors. It does not engage with the concept of Google themselves as a bad actor. With full control of the rendering engine on all platforms, Google can stop engaging with standards bodies.…

Self-own to spite Google. Apple should protect users by competing, not by guarding their monopoly power. Everybody loves Apple now, wait until they inevitably miss earnings and you're locked in their prison. It's a turnkey malevolent dictatorship.

“The guy with the one tank should compete fairly with the entire military force of a continent. If they’re in the right they will win.”

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#375

Post by depressedpanda »

GekkePrutser wrote: post #300
m-p-3 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, this denies me from using an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS. Imposing an artificial limit on iOS isn't how the web will move forward. > Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. I don't see Apple making any effort to diversify the browser ecosystem by making their browser available on other operating systems, so their inaction on other fro…

In fact Apple doesn't even bother supporting Firefox on some sites. Case in point https://business.apple.com

That's honestly the first site I can remember visiting where Firefox mobile doesn't work.

It was blocked in Chrome too until I toggled desktop mode on.

What are they doing, blocking based on the user agent string? How mediocre. They're clearly not doing feature detection.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#376

Post by JCWasmx86 »

IX-103 wrote: post #340
JCWasmx86 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know how I'd go about codifying that into law though. Simply make the DNT-Header a legally binding thing. If the user sends it, it means that only technically necessary cookies can be used. This would require no UX from the side of the website, thus defeating all dark patterns at once

"only technically necessary cookies" That doesn't really help preserve privacy. There are so many techniques for tracking, detectable and undetectable.

I formulated it a bit to informal, I meant, that the website should just don't collect data from me unless it is really needed. (E.g. Tracking identifiers are not needed or collecting fingerprints from WebCanvas and so on)

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#377

Post by MatthiasPortzel »

danShumway wrote: post #180
innocenat wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want website to not be broken on Safari, the solution is to give developer without a Mac the ability to test on Safari. I wouldn't be able to fix my site if it's broken on Mac Safari if I don't have a Mac.

Can't upvote this enough. I support an Open web, I test my websites on Firefox and Chrome, I even occasionally do Edge testing, and I develop my websites often primarily in Firefox. But I'm not buying an iPhone or a laptop just to test websites, so I don't test in Safari. Every other browser has a way to emulate in Linux, I can even download free VMs from Microsoft to test IE11 in Windows (and Edge now runs in Linux)…

Apple provides Linux builds of WebKit.

=> https://WebKit.org/downloads

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#378

Post by Retr0id »

bogwog wrote: post #29

IIRC, every video game console that ships with webkit has been jailbroken due to vulnerabilities in webkit. Off the top of my head at least, I know the following have been exploited that way: * PS4 * PS Vita * 3DS/New 3DS * Wii U * Wii Also maybe PS3/PSP and likely also PS5 will get the webkit exploit treatment at some point.

A couple of things to note here.

Firstly, this is not a webkit-specific problem - It's just that webkit is the most commonly embedded browser engine.

I have personally jailbroken my LG smart TV using a V8 n-day exploit (details not public, yet).

For any modern browser engine that is left unpatched, it is only a matter of time before it can be exploited using publicly-available techniques - and console manufacturers know this. Which leads me to my second point:

Console manufactuers assume that the browser will be compromised, and sandbox it appropriately. It is not a meaningful security boundary, by design. Exploiting the browser on a console, on its own, doesn't get get you very far. You'll need to chain it with additional exploits (a sandbox escape, a kernel exploit, etc.) to do something useful.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#379

Post by depressedpanda »

kennywinker wrote: post #274
jpgvm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the IE comparison is apt. IE shipped on (almost) every machine, had a ton of lock in features like ActiveX, etc. MS actively abused their monopoly position to make it so preventing default installation of Netscape by OEMs, incentivising ISVs to ensure web based enterprise products shipped with "Works best in Internet Explorer" etc. Netscape lost market share to IE not because it lost users but because w…

If you use firefox or safari, you routinely encounter sites that don't work without chrome.

I keep hearing people say this, but it's not my experience at all. I have no idea what kind of web sites they're visiting.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#380

Post by raydev »

robertoandred wrote: post #120
smoldesu wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They definitely have the capital to make it happen. Every time I boot up Safari after a MacOS update, I'm consistently wowed by how little of their revenue actually goes in to making a comfortable, feature-complete browser. It's almost like you're using a different, nerfed internet with Safari, but maybe that's just me being angry that uBlock Origin doesn't work anymore.

There are plenty of ad blockers for Safari, not sure what nerfed experience you're referring to.

> There are plenty of ad blockers for Safari

And none of them work as well as uBlock Origin on Chrome.

Trust me, I tried. I even paid money to try a few extensions out on Safari in the hopes I would get a better experience, but even that doesn't work.

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