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Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

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Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#351

Post by MBCook »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #132
MBCook wrote: post #14

I’m going to ignore the security angle and post my big fear. Chrome has dominance similar to IE at the height of its popularity. Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. (Note: not why they’re doing it, just a side effect) People keep arguing Apple is being anti-competitive. But no one seems to recon with the possible consequences of what they’re asking for. And I fea…

> I’m going to ignore the security angle That's the whole purpose of this post. Instead you want to fear monger and deflect from a sore subject for Apple.

Their argument (which others have pointed out flaws with) is Safari is a security issue so Apple needs to open up.

I’m saying even if they’re right about security (which I doubt) the fallout will be so much worse we shouldn’t do it.

This is not something you can look at in a vacuum. There are serious ramifications to their suggestion and they need to be realized.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#352

Post by MBCook »

_8j50 wrote: post #286
MBCook wrote: post #14

I’m going to ignore the security angle and post my big fear. Chrome has dominance similar to IE at the height of its popularity. Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. (Note: not why they’re doing it, just a side effect) People keep arguing Apple is being anti-competitive. But no one seems to recon with the possible consequences of what they’re asking for. And I fea…

It isn't in Chrome's interest to dominate 90%+ anyways. It already is being treated as the default browser when devs create frontends. It will almost certainly see regulation, at least in the EU to have some sort of standards compliance else Google is fined.

> It isn't in Chrome's interest to dominate 90%+ anyways.

Why is that? I’ve never heard anyone argue that point before so I’m curious what you think the downsides would be to Google.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#353

Post by the_gipsy »

xrisk wrote: post #8
amelius wrote: post #6

So they are saying that they can't make a secure sandbox? Why is running other applications somehow secure?

fwiw: the App Store also prohibits JITed code or in general code pulled in after app publishing. I guess the idea is that (at least in theory) that Apple sees all code that an app runs.

In practice this is complete bullshit, most apps pull some code in some way or another.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#354

Post by MBCook »

danShumway wrote: post #210
MBCook wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one number I can find is that 25% of iOS users already use Chrome on iOS. So that’s 5% of all surfing. You know that would immediately become real Chrome. Once it’s possible to have real Chrome my fear is Google would start breaking things on Safari (or just refusing to fix things) to drive people to it.

It's a somewhat legit concern given that people have alleged they basically did that already with Firefox. And the stats make me curious -- given that Chrome on iOS is just a wrapper around Safari, are people just switching because Google Docs tells them to, and that's enough? I'm having a hard time of thinking of a functionality reason to switch to Chrome in iOS (maybe browser/bookmark sync, I guess). I'm surprised…

I have always highly suspected that normal people don’t know/care about how Chrome on iOS works. It’s only the developer community that is so outspoken about it.

Of course I have no way to prove that at all.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#355

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

snowwrestler wrote: post #283
MBCook wrote: post #14

I’m going to ignore the security angle and post my big fear. Chrome has dominance similar to IE at the height of its popularity. Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. (Note: not why they’re doing it, just a side effect) People keep arguing Apple is being anti-competitive. But no one seems to recon with the possible consequences of what they’re asking for. And I fea…

People do not seem to understand how important it is to Google they they achieve full control of the browser end of the WWW. The blog post at the top of this thread talks about CVEs and other measures of resistance to 3rd party bad actors. It does not engage with the concept of Google themselves as a bad actor. With full control of the rendering engine on all platforms, Google can stop engaging with standards bodies.…

Self-own to spite Google. Apple should protect users by competing, not by guarding their monopoly power. Everybody loves Apple now, wait until they inevitably miss earnings and you're locked in their prison. It's a turnkey malevolent dictatorship.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#357

Post by kccqzy »

AlexandrB wrote: post #79
lucasyvas wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not Apple's choice to make on whether or not Chrome becomes a browser monopoly - fighting anti-competitiveness with anti-competitiveness is not a solution. The chips will fall as they will and we will all be left to deal with the aftermath. That's the way it has to be.

> That's the way it has to be. What? Why? I assure you that's not how Google thought of it when they were facing off against Firefox and IE. They were putting Chrome installers in every SourceForge download and telling you to install Chrome when you searched Google. Why should their competitors lie down and let Chrome roll over them?

Apple was very similar in that regard as well. They were putting Safari installers in iTunes updates. People bought a new iPod and needed a new version of iTunes to sync with it? Magically they have now Safari installed.

And they were pushing it at a time when Safari for Windows was slower than Internet Explorer.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#358

Post by ocdtrekkie »

MBCook wrote: post #14

I’m going to ignore the security angle and post my big fear. Chrome has dominance similar to IE at the height of its popularity. Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. (Note: not why they’re doing it, just a side effect) People keep arguing Apple is being anti-competitive. But no one seems to recon with the possible consequences of what they’re asking for. And I fea…

This is the absolute reality of what Open Web Advocacy is pushing for. A complete Chrome monopoly. It's really frustrating a couple lazy web devs with really incorrect understanding of the space keep getting so much attention.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#359

Post by the_gipsy »

usrn wrote: post #81
xrisk wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

fwiw: the App Store also prohibits JITed code or in general code pulled in after app publishing. I guess the idea is that (at least in theory) that Apple sees all code that an app runs.

Apple doesn't see any of the code. They pay someone to poke at the GUI for ~15 minutes with an HTTP proxy running. That's it. If you want an app store where people see code use f-droid.

Maybe there are random deep inspections, but yea usually it's just some poor soul poking the UI and scanning some superficial analysis.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#360

Post by MBCook »

lenkite wrote: post #203
MBCook wrote: post #14

I’m going to ignore the security angle and post my big fear. Chrome has dominance similar to IE at the height of its popularity. Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. (Note: not why they’re doing it, just a side effect) People keep arguing Apple is being anti-competitive. But no one seems to recon with the possible consequences of what they’re asking for. And I fea…

"Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web." Sorry what ? Can you point me to the place where I can download Safari for Linux and Windows and Android ? If they actually had those builds, I would believe what you say. But no - All they are doing is protecting their turf by hitting every other browser with sticks so folks prefer native apps over web apps.

I think you misunderstand.

Yes, Safari is only on Apple platforms.

I’m saying Chrome is already dominant on Windows, Linux, Android, and Chromebook.

The only one where it’s not is iOS (Mac is kinda close, but small in terms of users).

If real Chrome can go on iOS my supposition is Chrome will become dominant there too.

Leaving no platform not dominated by Chrome.

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