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Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

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Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#41

Post by red_trumpet »

djbebs wrote: post #22
jmyeet wrote: post #6

It's a testament to how effective propaganda can be when you see how easily you can get people to vote against their own interests. It's crazy to me that anyone who works in these Amazon warehouses votes agains tunionization but they do [1]. Even in the successful vote, there were still a lot of "no" votes. Unionization in the US is the lowest of all OECD nations (~10%) [2]. Is it any wonder US workers don't get paid…

I would never join a union.

Isn't that irrational? If the union provides you with benefits, why would you not join?

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#42

Post by stefan_ »

indigochill wrote: post #40
geysersam wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever their interests are, they will be easier to achieve by unionizing. Not organizing only makes your interests irrelevant. That can hardly be in anyones own interests.

I realize mine is not necessarily a majority experience, but as a young single no-debt high-performing worker, I can negotiate a lot more effectively by myself than I could in a union because I can argue purely on my own merits and if the employer is unreasonable (and not all are) it's fairly easy for me to switch employers. I even moved to a different country early in my career for a better career opportunity. So no…

You think there are Amazon warehouse workers negotiating? You know this isn't really a full-day interview process, get to know the team kinda job right.

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#43

Post by jahnu »

meatsauce wrote: post #26
jmyeet wrote: post #6

It's a testament to how effective propaganda can be when you see how easily you can get people to vote against their own interests. It's crazy to me that anyone who works in these Amazon warehouses votes agains tunionization but they do [1]. Even in the successful vote, there were still a lot of "no" votes. Unionization in the US is the lowest of all OECD nations (~10%) [2]. Is it any wonder US workers don't get paid…

Why do leftists believe they have the right to tell others what their interests are?

We all have the right to discuss our opinion of what is best for each other. The OP there isn't arguing for taking away the right of someone to decide.

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#44

Post by kilotaras »

jmyeet wrote: post #6

It's a testament to how effective propaganda can be when you see how easily you can get people to vote against their own interests. It's crazy to me that anyone who works in these Amazon warehouses votes agains tunionization but they do [1]. Even in the successful vote, there were still a lot of "no" votes. Unionization in the US is the lowest of all OECD nations (~10%) [2]. Is it any wonder US workers don't get paid…

> Even in the successful vote, there were still a lot of "no" votes.

I'm gonna steelman those no votes. BigCos don't like unions to the point they can and sometimes do close the place/warehouse alltogether. This is worse than working in non-union shop, especially in economically depressed area.

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#45

Post by chronofar »

geysersam wrote: post #12
fallingknife wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe it's you who has fallen for propaganda. I think it's most likely that they know their own interests better than you do.

Whatever their interests are, they will be easier to achieve by unionizing. Not organizing only makes your interests irrelevant. That can hardly be in anyones own interests.

That is clearly too broad a brush. Collective bargaining is useful if your needs are aligned with the collective, if not they may be at best unhelpful and at worst actively counter productive (for instance if you have some personal circumstance you wanted to negotiate beyond the terms of the agreement, rather than negotiating with a boss or two you now have to negotiate with your representative organization). Not to mention various forms of corruption that can take hold in such arrangements.

I wonder if the rather abhorrent means of union busting has led to an extreme reaction of causing passer bys to take a cartoonish slant, as though unions can only do good in the world and only if they can overcome evil corporate interest. Unions have some clear advantages, but are far from a panacea of aligning interests for all parties.

This seems to me to be yet another fault line on which propagandists at the dials have managed to convince people to coalesce into tribes strong enough to use absolutist language where nuance is required.

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#46

Post by JasonFruit »

rob74 wrote: post #23
thaumasiotes wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing incorrect about the fact that "American" refers specifically to the USA. Compare this wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans > Americans are the citizens and nationals of the United States of America.

Okay, TIL. However, if you look at the "language versions" of that Wikipedia page, that also explains my confusion: Deutsch: "US-Amerikaner" Español: "Estadounidense" Italiano: "Statunitensi" ... so there are plenty of languages that do make a distinction between "American living on the American continent(s)" and "American from the US". Full disclosure: I'm from Germany...

It's funny: when Americans realize we're saying the name of a foreign city badly, like Peking for Beijing, Canton for Guangzhou, and others, we move to assimilate our naming to that of the natives. Why is it that everyone insists that we refer to ourselves by the wrong name? Is it even possible for us to be wrong about what we call ourselves?

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#47

Post by meatsauce »

ok123456 wrote: post #28
meatsauce wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do leftists believe they have the right to tell others what their interests are?

The have an interest in not being given demerits for using the bathroom (aka: "time off task")

That still doesn't answer the question. Nor does it address the issue of people who abuse policies, such as those who hide in the bathroom for 1/8th of the shift.

This isn't the 19th century anymore. Unions had served a good purpose, but in no way do they serve the interests of everybody, especially in modern society given labor laws. My experience in several unions only demonstrated how corrupt, inept, and self-serving they are.

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#48

Post by verve_rat »

kilotaras wrote: post #44
jmyeet wrote: post #6

It's a testament to how effective propaganda can be when you see how easily you can get people to vote against their own interests. It's crazy to me that anyone who works in these Amazon warehouses votes agains tunionization but they do [1]. Even in the successful vote, there were still a lot of "no" votes. Unionization in the US is the lowest of all OECD nations (~10%) [2]. Is it any wonder US workers don't get paid…

> Even in the successful vote, there were still a lot of "no" votes. I'm gonna steelman those no votes. BigCos don't like unions to the point they can and sometimes do close the place/warehouse alltogether. This is worse than working in non-union shop, especially in economically depressed area.

Or, you know, you could have sane laws that make that kind of behaviour illegal.

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#49

Post by chrisseaton »

red_trumpet wrote: post #38
meatsauce wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

He did not really define the interests of other people. What kind of interests could one have, that are contrary to forming a union?

Very concrete example - in the UK most unions support one particular political party. If you don't like some of the positions of that party - for example you support the Greens or you’re a Liberal, or don't like what Labour did during the wars, or hated Corbyn, or hate Starmer - then you might find it offensive to join a union that campaigns for Labour.

Re: Amazon is intimidating and harassing organizing workers in Montreal

#50

Post by meatsauce »

andrepd wrote: post #31
meatsauce wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do leftists believe they have the right to tell others what their interests are?

As the other other poster says: whatever those interests are, you cannot fight for them alone vs a trillion dollar corp like Amazon, so that point is moot. Collective action is the only way you stand a chance.

You can work someplace else if you hate the company. Imagine that.
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