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College has been oversold

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Re: College has been oversold

#201

Post by firebones »

phil wrote: post #163
joshklein wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of things we do here would make them question our mental health. Say, pretending like you really need more than that $40,000 job the English major can get that lets him live in a small but safe apartment in a fine neighborhood (that has plumbing, electricity, and sanitation) in a non-center-of-the-world American city, and shop for all the groceries he needs in the market 10 minutes away. Anyway, for a community…

Jobs made that point even more explicitly: http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l0f1ocmoGG1qz50x3.png

And the quote that goes with it:

"We’ve always tried to be at the intersection of technology and liberal arts, to be able to get the best of both, to make extremely advanced products from a technology point of view, but also have them be intuitive, easy to use, fun to use, so that they really fit the users – the users don’t have to come to them, they come to the user.” --Steve Jobs

Re: College has been oversold

#202

Post by geebee »

I agree that the humanities can be very valuable for all kinds of reasons, and people with this academic background certainly can be successful in the job market. There are plenty of examples.

But you know all those articles fretting about how recent college grads are struggling these days? They almost all have a quote from some student who says "I went to college, I studied hard, I did everything I was supposed to do..." and then reveals that this jobless graduate with 50k+ in student loans majored in film, or literature, or political science.

I have trouble believing these students weren't at least somewhat aware of what they were getting themselves into with those majors. These quotes never come from a computer science or chemical engineering major. And while I understand these majors don't appeal to everyone, I was a double English/Math major (and I took a lot of CS-courses), and really, the Math and CS was much more difficult - I couldn't get away with a few all nighters writing a paper a few times a semester, it took daily, consistent effort, and a lot of it. Like you, I took my humanities seriously, and I'm really glad I did. In many ways, I think that the English major has been more helpful in my career as a software developer than my math and even my CS classes.

But I don't think you can say "I did everything I was supposed to do, and I still can't get a job" if you majored in "Slavic Literature". People have known for decades that slavic literature majors have trouble getting jobs.

I graduated 20+ years ago, and even then we had that old joke:

the science major asks "why does it work" the engineering major asks "how can I make it work?" the finance major asks "how much will it cost to make it work?" the english major asks "would you like fries with that?"

Re: College has been oversold

#203

Post by neutronicus »

RoastBeats wrote: post #96
rlovelett wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your premise and don't have any rebuttal to it that would include facts and/or figures. But one thought did pop into my mind when reading your comment. I wonder if your feeling is a prevailing thought/sentiment among liberal arts professors. And if it is then why don't you and your ilk just give out more B's and C's? So what if they cry? If you think they deserve the B or C then that is the grade. But wh…

Have to agree with Neutronicus here. The prevailing example would be the "But I'll never get into med school/law school if you don't raise my B+ to an A-" argument which I hear at least three times a semester. This gives us two solutions. First, is to convince naive kids that it's OK to be something other than a lawyer or doctor. Seriously, any students reading this comment, pay attention: There are plenty of other w…

The problem is that assessment is a very valuable function of universities. Industry relies on them as a filter. I don't actually believe that industry values the training universities provide as much as it values the assessment it doesn't have to do because of universities.

The universities are thus in sort of a bind. They do an enormous amount of assessment, but the people who benefit the most from accurate assessment, namely industry, don't bear the costs of it. Their actual customers, the students who are ostensibly paying for an education, in essence demand an inaccurately positive assessment instead, because it achieves what an education achieves (get far enough in the door at a corporation that it would be a pain to fire you) with less labor input from the students.

The universities can't just stop focusing on assessment - like I said, I think it's actually more valuable than education. They need to be replaced by some industry-funded institution whose sole incentive is to provide accurate assessment.

Re: College has been oversold

#204

Post by Homunculiheaded »

Hyena wrote: post #101
Homunculiheaded wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an English degree an am wrapping up a CS master's relatively soon (going very part time for essentially free). I've never regretted my English degree, and have actually found that it has provided me a lot of really useful skills working in more technical areas. Not to mention that as you go higher and higher up in the level of classes, the ability to write and communicate becomes increasingly more important. E…

I think that works well for computer science but possibly not so much for other fields. Comp sci seems unique in that it does not require immense background to get moving, unlike mechanical or chemical engineering. How did the master's go? What was your prior background in comp sci, if any?

The master's is going well so far, just 2 more classes and my thesis to go. I did do a fair amount of catch up before i applied, and actually started taking classes just for fun until I realized how much I loved CS. The main classes I took first were: Intro to CS, Discrete Math, Data Structures, Systems and a few more that weren't as core. I also took a compilers course in the program I eventually enrolled in (just at the local state university) which helped a lot with my application, since it had the reputation of being particularly challenging. I taught myself formal languages, programming language theory and few others (it's actually funny because I now teach a section of a plt class even though I've never formally taken one)

I agree that CS is easier for non-technical majors to get started in, but really for any field there is only a handful of truly core courses, the rest can be caught up on as you go. The biggest issue with humanities is the lack of math (although as I've played catch up I'm really surprised how many technical people really don't have as strong a background in math as they should.)

I would have balked at the idea when I was an undergrad,but I really feel that all college grads should be proficient in calc 1-3, linear algebra, and prob & statistics. If every English major was comfortable with those areas they would have the foundation to go in pretty much any direction they wanted. The cultural separation between 'technical' and 'non-technical' people in general is a huge problem, we need more people that can do both.

Really if you want to cut down on the number of people graduating with huge debt and unable to find a job, make college harder. My passion for English undergrad would have been enough to make me push through the math reqs I proposed above, but there were plenty of people in my classes who would have definitely be driven out by them. Knowledge of Shakespeare and Probability are equally important to being 'educated' imho, many college grads have knowledge of neither.

Re: College has been oversold

#205

Post by jessedhillon »

gaustin wrote: post #160
gyardley wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$50K in Missoula is probably $80K in San Francisco and $100K in NYC, and that's without taking discrepancies in federal, state, local, and sales taxes into account. A senior developer in SF or NYC is still coming out ahead - probably due to the sheer amount of competition for them - but not quite as much as you'd think at first glance.

The biggest difference to my mind, the one that bugs me most, is the opportunity cost. Sure, I have no commute, low mortgage for a big house, no sales tax and easy access to some of the most beautiful unspoiled wilderness in the entire world. The downside is that there are virtually no jobs/startups here that I find interesting. You either adjust your expectations when you live here, or you go somewhere else. I am so…

What about lying or simply not answering?

Why would an interviewer have a right to know your current salary? That person is tasked with acquiring your intellectual resources at the lowest price possible. And by giving them your current salary, you're clearing up a big unknown in their equation -- your current alternative to a negotiated agreement.

When you go and buy a car, the sales people don't generally offer to tell you the car's invoice price, do they?

Re: College has been oversold

#206

Post by mseebach »

gaustin wrote: post #165
mahyarm wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Move, work in the bay area, get that network and then move back. If you have a house in Montana, and family there, rent it out and get your family to help you manage it. Even if you have to pay $2000/month more in rent, which you won't, you'll still come out ahead. And you'll have better weather and cheaper airfare than Montana.

This is an avenue I'm investigating. Just trying to find the right place to go. Right now I'm doing a software craftsman apprenticeship to increase the quality of place I can get a job. When that's done (it's a 20-30 hour commitment on top of a full-time+ job) in January, I'm going to get involved in some OSS projects. The move is probably at least 6-12 months out.

It sounds alot to me like you're having confidence issues. By all means, get involved with OSS, but do it for love, not to beef up your CV. If you have no code to your name, stick your SC exercises on GitHub and start applying. There was a hiring thread here yesterday with at least a hundred jobs across the US. Opportunity is ripe.

Worst case scenario if you do? You won't get anything good.

Worst case scenario if you don't? You'll have spent a year trying more or less random things and then still not getting anything.

Re: College has been oversold

#207

Post by phil »

firebones wrote: post #201
phil wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs made that point even more explicitly: http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l0f1ocmoGG1qz50x3.png

And the quote that goes with it: "We’ve always tried to be at the intersection of technology and liberal arts, to be able to get the best of both, to make extremely advanced products from a technology point of view, but also have them be intuitive, easy to use, fun to use, so that they really fit the users – the users don’t have to come to them, they come to the user.” --Steve Jobs

If only everyone guided their work by those principles. The world of consumer technology would be a much better place.

Re: College has been oversold

#209

Post by pflats »

estevez wrote: post #197
pflats wrote: post #6

This is a consequence of the concerted effort by educators to increase post-secondary enrollment in the United States. Presumably, the students likely to enroll in a math or science program were (by and large) already heading to college 25 years ago. As a metric for high schools, students enrolling in and graduating from a 4-year college is one of the most important numbers in the all-important school ranking. Studen…

Presumably, the students likely to enroll in a math or science program were (by and large) already heading to college 25 years ago. This presumption is not supported by the data. Since 1970 the proportion of STEM degrees out of all degrees awarded has averaged 24% with a SD of `2.

Bereft of outside research, I was responding to the article, which stated, "Over the past 25 years the total number of students in college has increased by about 50 percent. But the number of students graduating with degrees in science, technology, engineering and math (the so-called STEM fields) has remained more or less constant."

Re: College has been oversold

#210

Post by tnicola »

ceol wrote: post #162
redthrowaway wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that the case of Jobs is a perfect illustration of the grandparent's point: he dropped out of Reed College because he couldn't justify the expense to himself. He audited the calligraphy class, and slept on floors and couches. So he didn't go $100k into debt to take those classes with the expectation it would land him a good job; he sat in on them because he was interested in them but recognized they were a bad…

I think Josh's point is that Jobs' success came from the inspiration he got from his calligraphy class— not an engineering degree. He was never really an engineer. And I agree with him: many tech-oriented sites tend to think the only jobs that (should) exist end in "Science" or "Engineering". Does the entertainment industry not fuel economic growth? Would Netflix be popular if we didn't have movies and television sho…

The problem is that you can't have an engineering job without and engineering degree. Being a software engineer and being a software developer are two things. It's like saying you are mechanical engineer if you can use AutoCad. Why would I bother with the degree when I can read the manual.

Engineering is a process by which professionals create and better their surrounding harmoniously with nature and society. Software is also built like this.

However, to suggest that being a code monkey or a WOW tester is an 'engineering position' is a leap you can only make in software. Cause suggesting that someone who took 2 classes of AutoCad can build you a bridge is ludicrous.

You can, however, get a job in entertainment industry without a degree in the said field. And getting a degree in, let's say, singing, does not make you the next Madonna either.

Whereas taking an engineering degree make you an engineer.

And you can't possibly think Apple is successful cause Steve Jobs took a calligraphy class, do you? If so, you're in denial of what it really takes to do what he did.

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