Live data from Hacker News

My awakening moment about how smartphones fragment our attention span

idratherbewriting.com

211–220 of 231 posts

Re: My awakening moment about how smartphones fragment our attention span

#211
post #166

> When I pulled up at a stoplight waiting for the light to change, I would instinctively reached for my phone (mounted on my dash) to check my email (personal + work), check ESPN, look up something on Amazon, etc. While pumping gas in the car, I’d whip out my phone while waiting. Stuck in line somewhere? Time for my phone. Waiting in an elevator? The phone. Riding the train? The phone. Going to the bathroom? Make sur…

> The crazy part is, not one single person I know thinks of it as a bad thing That's what gets me the most. We all have an insane addiction, yet nobody seems to be talking about it. It's completely socially accepted. Interestingly, a lot of weird things are totally socially accepted. Religion, alcohol, coffee, etc. (I'm a sinner who drinks but still, it's weird)

It's fascinating because ten years ago, people did talk about it. I remember when everybody started getting smart phones, when someone whipped out their phone, somebody would inevitably comment on it, like "Oh, we're playing with our phones out now?" and then would follow suit. (Most likely because they wanted to check something on their phone as well.)

It was almost a faux pas at first to sneak a peek at your phone when having a meal or coffee with someone, but nowadays, nobody bats an eyelash. I very much remember people consciously trying to put their phones away or face them down on the table since it was so distracting to everyone.

I suppose for someone who's 25 years old now, it's not necessarily a social transition that they experienced.

Re: My awakening moment about how smartphones fragment our attention span

#212

Books are slow and often teeming with filler content. Audiobooks are even slower than books and practically painfully so. When I had to paint walls for few hours I initially listened to audiobook but it was tortuous. My own thoughts are more interesting and less of a slog than a book read at that pace. Audiobook feels like my brain is shoved into a tarpit and held there foricbly. It's really no wonder that your brain…

As a fiction author who spends hours worrying about individual sentences and whether they're carrying their weight in the overall story--is it advancing the narrative, or deepening characterization, or delivering important information, or furthering my thematic goals, or (ideally) doing more than one of these things at once?--I'm pretty resistant to your claim that books are "often teeming with filler content." Possibly too resistant; perhaps your attempted reading is biased such that this is actually true. Maybe you're trying to make it through lots of things that were originally published as serials, or lack good editing, or have some other reason for the author to have emphasized sheer length over the qualities we usually find motivating. Maybe this is an accurate representation of your experiences.

But I'd like you to consider the possibility that, rather than huge swaths of those books you disparage being pointless, they are instead doing things that you have not cultivated an awareness for. It may be that, rather than being "filled with so so many words that were just exercise in language use for the author and carry barely any information," they are instead filled with passages offering information that you are not currently sensitive to, like music played on a frequency you can't hear.

Fully engaging with art requires an active interest. Art is generally made by people who are deeply interested in their form, and made in ways that reward said interest being matched. The less commercial the art form, the more this is true. Even within specific art forms, there are distinct traditions and modes. Its unreasonable to expect that you will appreciate everything about a particular work of art without developing literacy in those things.

For example, if I say that I find fighting video games boring, that's a perfectly defensible position. But if I say that fighting video games are boring because the developers don't in enough effort to make something other than a thin story about who wins a tournament, then I'm simply wrong. That's a failure to engage with the art on its own terms. Fighting video games aren't about narrative, they're about zoning and rushdown and combos and various other game mechanics. The developers put in lots of effort, but their focus was on gameplay, not narrative. Expecting the focus to be narrative would be an error on my part.

If I made that error, I might also say something like, "Why do these fighting games have so many characters? The tournament story barely changes no matter who you play as. All these extra characters are useless filler." In saying that, I would reveal myself to be insensitive to the vastly different move sets and mechanical plusses/minuses that are the desiderata for the large casts of most fighting games.

(As it happens, I do think fighting games are boring. But that doesn't mean the games are flawed, just that not all art forms are enjoyed equally by all people.)

(And while the large casts of fighting games aren't filler, there are, of course, video games with filler. Triple-A video games often have filler, to be able to boast about, say, 100+ hours of content. Anime series based on ongoing manga often have filler, to maintain their viewership without running out of material. When things have filler, the reason is usually commercial. When The Hobbit was adapted for the screen, it wasn't split into three movies for artistic reasons. Filler is all about money. Most fiction authors are not lucky enough to have any reason to produce filler.)

A quotation attributed to Lord Dunsany: "I see now that keen interest can illuminate anything, and that anything, moreover, has something worth illuminating in it, and that without that interest gates carved by Benvenuto Cellini from two diamonds would merely look chilly."

Things grow in our estimation with the attention we invest in them. Your "rising standard on what feels interesting" could, instead, be a diminished capacity or willingness to invest a keen attention in things that don't immediately capture your interest. When all the things you struggle to focus on are also things that seem, to you, to be fully without merit, then how could you distinguish between those two states?

Perhaps those books you tried are filled with thing that, even when engaged with actively, would still not be to your taste. But when you say they carry barely any information, it's hard for me not to think of "The Machine Stops" by E. M. Forster:

The air-ship was crossing another range of mountains, but she could see little, owing to clouds. Masses of black rock hovered below her, and merged indistinctly into grey. Their shapes were fantastic; one of them resembled a prostrate man.

“No ideas here,” murmured Vashti, and hid the Caucasus behind a metal blind. In the evening she looked again. They were crossing a golden sea, in which lay many small islands and one peninsula. She repeated, “No ideas here,” and hid Greece behind a metal blind.

Re: My awakening moment about how smartphones fragment our attention span

#213

I did a digital detox in July of 2020, I had become overwhelmed with Discord and Reddit moderation and trying to Keep Up. I burned out hard. I turned off all electronics for a month and uninstalled the apps and restricted my phone use to calls and responding to 3 close friend's texts at a set time each day--I didn't keep it on me at all. No video games, no TV, no watch or music streaming. I had my library of local mu…

How does reading & commenting on HN fit into that digitial detox? Genuinely curious.

I've learned to steer clear of the "hot topic" threads with over 200 comments. Usually the conversation has long since derailed from the original topic of the link.

There are also smaller, more frequent threads that focus on recurring topics such as big tech power, cryptocurrency, Elon Musk, H1B visas that also head in predictable directions and can be avoided.

Re: My awakening moment about how smartphones fragment our attention span

#214
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately I'm not a doctor or researcher to be able to give a definitive answer, but I don't think these things can cause ADHD - though they can likely worsen symptoms, for both people who have it and those who don't. But I suspect such an effect would be reversible, unlike (genetic components of) ADHD.

I thought that the researcher that 'discovered' ADHD admitted oh his death bed that it was just a scam he invented to make money on the drugs to cure it.

Oh, trust me I wish I never could relate to the ADHD symptoms, but for better or for worse it exists. Heck, the concept of Alzheimer's sounds very suspicious ("How do you forget your name!?")... until you see someone with it and then it's just sad :(

Re: My awakening moment about how smartphones fragment our attention span

#215

At the risk of sounding repetitive, this can also be a classic case of ADHD. If you also resonate with the post, ask yourself - do you have issues planning and completing long projects? Time management and procrastination issues? Lacking motivation? (Dis)organization problems? (Bonus: frustrated with yourself/your progress!) If (like me) you say "damn that's a lot of things I have to a significant degree" then you sh…

For Diabetes, there’s Type I (genetic) and Type II (caused by frequent exposure to high blood sugar). I wonder if ADHD might have something similar, that we’re just beginning to notice. The brain’s plasticity might be adjusting to higher levels of dopamine from our phones. Anecdotally, I never had ADHD-like symptoms until COVID lockdowns. In the last year, I would spend pretty much all day in front of a screen and ne…

Apparently stressful situations (university, becoming a parent) can cause folk's lives to fall apart revealing adhd that was being till then coped with okay (like in my case - I moved to a different continent for my degree). Covid too caused a huge shift for a lot of folks who may have been able to cope till then. (Personally I don't think ADHD is binary - autism is now understood as a spectrum, I think ADHD should be too.)

Fun fact, I have diabetes too ;) Fun life lol

Re: My awakening moment about how smartphones fragment our attention span

#216
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no one gene, but aside from very specific things, there's hardly one gene for any condition, but ADHD is highly heritable, and we already know several strong candidates. DRD4-R7, COMT Val158Met, TPH2, a couple others have been identified recently. Also, PET scans and in some cases high-density EEG can pick it up, the thing is, those are quite expensive and don't really even tell you that much, whereas psychol…

There is neither one or many genes or any objective biological test that is used to diagnose any psychiatric condition in the DSM. "psychiatric diagnosis still relies exclusively on fallible subjective judgments rather than objective biological tests" -Allen Francis, Professor and Chairman Emeritus of the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Duke University School of Medicine, chair of the American Psy…

The mechanism of gene expression means the presence of certain genes may cause an individual to be more or less susceptible to certain stimuli.

So yes, the presence or absence of genes alone may not determine much, but together taking account to one's environment and upbringing, may have explanatory power.

It's similar to medical diagnoses where the presence of X genes mean someone is Y% more likely to exhibit Z condition.

Re: My awakening moment about how smartphones fragment our attention span

#217

Books are slow and often teeming with filler content. Audiobooks are even slower than books and practically painfully so. When I had to paint walls for few hours I initially listened to audiobook but it was tortuous. My own thoughts are more interesting and less of a slog than a book read at that pace. Audiobook feels like my brain is shoved into a tarpit and held there foricbly. It's really no wonder that your brain…

As a fiction author who spends hours worrying about individual sentences and whether they're carrying their weight in the overall story--is it advancing the narrative, or deepening characterization, or delivering important information, or furthering my thematic goals, or (ideally) doing more than one of these things at once?--I'm pretty resistant to your claim that books are "often teeming with filler content." Possi…

I'm terribly sorry. I know some people delight in carefully chosen phrasing and meandering narratives. It's just a shrinking set. Other just want only relevant information at a snappy pace and internet makes them aware that's what they actually like.

Your comment deserves tl;dr and it doesn't have one. You have no idea how tempting it is not to read it.

However I did and it was a slog.

So let me tell you what I got from it.

0. You don't agree.

1. Perhaps reading wrong books gave me wrong impression. (It's just a politeness, you really believe 2.)

2. I don't get books as I am not cultured enough to understand what they try to be.

3. To get art one needs to make effort. Only then reward comes.

4. Then comes a relatable example that fighting games don't need a story and demanding that of them is objectively wrong. Because art of fighting games is something else.

5. Then you agree that art sometimes is partly built of filler content.

6. Then a quote that says that everything has something interesting about it if you look intensly enough.

7. Then you claim that things gets better when you look at them longer. And you say that maybe I don't see value not because there's none but because my inability to focus prevented me from looking long enough and how can I tell.

8. Then you concede that it's possible that even if I looked as long as humanely possible at something I might still not like it.

Congrats. You created a comment in a style of a mediocre book. Hard to parse through, filled with a lot of words and just a few thoughts that don't particularly go anywhere.

I'll make an attempt at a response.

Your disagreement is entirely understandable given your occupation. Thank you for the attempt at politeness however I read many good books so it's not just because of happening to stumble only on bad stuff.

Now to the core of the argument ...

I don't agree that the only correct way of appreciating given form of art is doing it on its own terms.

I believe that criticizing fighting games for lack of plot is a valid position. Somebody might argue that Injustice 2 was the best fighting game ever and in sense that is important to him it might be objectively true.

I believe that appreciating art on my personal terms is equally valid and from my point of view way more important.

Great art does not require prior effort. Great art captures you in a way that gives you no option to avoid giving it your effort.

Mediocre art is a book that you read for half an hour every day and you think it's hard but rewarding.

Great art is a book that you finish reading at 4am because you couldn't possibly imagine falling asleep before you found out all that there was to find out.

As for my appreciation, sometimes the longer you look the more repulsive some creation becomes in your eyes. Like the form of your comment.

Re: My awakening moment about how smartphones fragment our attention span

#218
post #211
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The crazy part is, not one single person I know thinks of it as a bad thing That's what gets me the most. We all have an insane addiction, yet nobody seems to be talking about it. It's completely socially accepted. Interestingly, a lot of weird things are totally socially accepted. Religion, alcohol, coffee, etc. (I'm a sinner who drinks but still, it's weird)

It's fascinating because ten years ago, people did talk about it. I remember when everybody started getting smart phones, when someone whipped out their phone, somebody would inevitably comment on it, like "Oh, we're playing with our phones out now?" and then would follow suit. (Most likely because they wanted to check something on their phone as well.) It was almost a faux pas at first to sneak a peek at your phone…

I read this as I’m sitting in a social circle in a park and started checking HN on my phone as people were around

Re: My awakening moment about how smartphones fragment our attention span

#219

> When I pulled up at a stoplight waiting for the light to change, I would instinctively reached for my phone (mounted on my dash) to check my email (personal + work), check ESPN, look up something on Amazon, etc. While pumping gas in the car, I’d whip out my phone while waiting. Stuck in line somewhere? Time for my phone. Waiting in an elevator? The phone. Riding the train? The phone. Going to the bathroom? Make sur…

>Any spare or idle moment? It wouldn't even be that bad if it was just idle moments. If you're ever sitting in a cafe or restaurant or at the movies look around and see how often people bring their phone out during personal conversations or stuff they paid actual money to see. It is wild that barely anyone talks about how pervasive this is now.

I think that this is the worst part. We gradually forget how to do nothing, how to stare out a window and just daydream or read something. Not being busy or productive every moment.
Post reply on HN