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Fighting crime by checking buildings, not suspects

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131–140 of 143 posts

Re: Fighting crime by checking buildings, not suspects

#131
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people here, in a place where many people write logic for a living, cannot parse simple logic out of a statue, imagine how a judge or a jury would do it. I feel like often people in criminal justice do not understand meaning or intent of a statue and wing it, often slanting towards the side of punishing defendants. The law doesn't matter when your goal is to lock people up.

Maybe… however in the debate of this law, one side is saying “the law says you need purpose to cause” and the other side is saying “no it doesn’t. If you could read more than 14 words you would know that.” I’m not a lawyer, but I imagine an objective observer would find the former argument more compelling than the latter.

> however in the debate of this law, one side is saying “the law says you need purpose to cause” and the other side is saying “no it doesn’t. If you could read more than 14 words you would know that.”

> I’m not a lawyer, but I imagine an objective observer would find the former argument more compelling than the latter

Now, I decided not spend more time and money on law school about half way through when I decided I’d rather stay in technology, but I don't see how anyone can argue with a straight face that the mental state requirement “with purpose to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm or recklessly creating a risk thereof” (emphasis added) fails to apply to people recklessly causing a risk of public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm just as much a to those acting with purpose to cause such inconvenience, annoyance, and alarm.

Re: Fighting crime by checking buildings, not suspects

#132
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It really depends on the specific situation. Public space is for everyone’s enjoyment. Unfortunately, some people take advantage of their right to the space in a way that detracts from everyone. Take a park for example. Typically, a great place to take your kids. However, if someone $PROPERTY loiters in the park, it suddenly becomes a much worse place for everyone else. Technically, being $PROPERTY in a public plac…

Can you really compare being strung out on heroin with being ugly, though?

Yeah, in my country of origin exactly this rhetoric is used against every minority, from gay people to disabled people. Yeah, they intentionally make places _inaccessible_ for disabled and push autistic children out of schools.

Re: Fighting crime by checking buildings, not suspects

#133
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, sure, if you can't read more than 14 words in one sitting. But for everyone capable of reading entire sentences at once.. no, that's not the language of the statute, you would have to be intentionally misreading it to make that statement.

Sorry, I’m not understanding what you’re seeing. The law says “purpose to cause” and then lists two things joined by an OR clause. But you’re arguing that the “purpose to cause” language is irrelevant. I don’t see that in my reading. Can you break it down for me?

> you’re arguing that the “purpose to cause” language is irrelevant. I don’t see that in my reading.

Does it alarm you at all that the responses you're getting consist of (1) the suggestion that you're not able to read past the 14th word in a sentence, and (2) the observation "I don't see how anyone could say that with a straight face"?

> Can you break it down for me?

The statute is written very clearly on this point. It states two requirements for the offense to be committed; there is a state-of-mind requirement and an actual-conduct requirement. Both elements must be satisfied.

The actual-conduct requirement is satisfied by any one of three prongs (of which I quoted only the first two, because I didn't think there was a reasonable argument that public heroin use might satisfy the third). There appears to be very little dispute about its structure.

The state-of-mind requirement is satisfied by any one of two prongs. It states:

> A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if, with purpose to cause public inconvenience, [14] annoyance or alarm or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he or she...

For your convenience, I've marked the position following the 14th word in the sentence. Your argumentation so far has relied very heavily on pretending the words following that position do not exist. But they do.

Continuing from that point, we see that "public inconvenience" is not part of the necessary state of mind. Someone who intends to commit disorderly conduct may also do so with the purpose to cause public annoyance or public alarm. And more importantly, there is no intentionality requirement at all; the necessary state of mind is possessed by anyone "recklessly creating a risk of public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm". This prong is obviously satisfied by anyone who is high on heroin in public.

We can represent the structure of the statute very easily in Python-like pseudocode:

   if ( defendant.intended_public_alarm()
        or
        defendant.recklessly_risked_public_alarm() )
       and
       defendant.actually_caused_public_alarm() ):
     # the offense has been committed; check whether it's a
     # violation or a misdemeanor
You're arguing that whenever intended_public_alarm returns False, the overall statement will also evaluate to False, which suggests a very alarming inability to understand Boolean logic. Or, of course, an inability to see words that occur after the 14th position in a sentence. But there is no good-faith reading of the statute that could be argued to support your view.

Do you seriously intend to argue that the state-of-mind element is meant to include these four categories?

1. People with the purpose to cause public inconvenience;

2. People with the purpose to cause public annoyance;

3. People with the purpose to cause public alarm;

4. People with the purpose to recklessly creating a risk of public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm.

And that, leaving aside the gross ungrammaticality of category 4, the four categories were strung together in parallel in a list with the structure "a, b or c or d"?

Re: Fighting crime by checking buildings, not suspects

#134
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people here, in a place where many people write logic for a living, cannot parse simple logic out of a statue, imagine how a judge or a jury would do it. I feel like often people in criminal justice do not understand meaning or intent of a statue and wing it, often slanting towards the side of punishing defendants. The law doesn't matter when your goal is to lock people up.

Maybe… however in the debate of this law, one side is saying “the law says you need purpose to cause” and the other side is saying “no it doesn’t. If you could read more than 14 words you would know that.” I’m not a lawyer, but I imagine an objective observer would find the former argument more compelling than the latter.

> I’m not a lawyer, but I imagine an objective observer would find the former argument more compelling than the latter.

I like to think that an objective observer might read the statute before deciding which argument he thought was more compelling. Certainly a lawyer would.

Re: Fighting crime by checking buildings, not suspects

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The needles they leave lying around are noticed and harmful.

Not every heroin user in a park leaves their needles behind, just as not every person who eats lunch in a park leaves litter behind.

The standard practice on HN is to take the most charitable interpretation of the parent.

Re: Fighting crime by checking buildings, not suspects

#136
post #81
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not squeamish about urban areas—I lived in downtown Baltimore, Wilmington Delaware, and Atlanta. But you’re missing some perspective. The captain is talking about gangs. The presence of gang members means that law abiding citizens are driven out of these public places. So the folks who are “loitering” typically aren’t up to anything good. I just met an Uber driver from Germany the other day. He lives in Georgia (…

Here's a radical idea: invest in mental health, food security & education, and community programs to directly combat the source of the gangs and bad behavior, rather than try to control people's behavior. That is the distinction you've seemed to miss here. Controlling others' behavior is ineffective at best. It's treating symptoms with pain killers while ignoring the source of the problem. It's weak leadership, and,…

You've just written a lot of applause lights. What's a substantive proposal do you believe will have a realistic chance of being passed through Congress? If you can't think of one then it may not be as straightforward as you believe.

Re: Fighting crime by checking buildings, not suspects

#138
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a radical idea: invest in mental health, food security & education, and community programs to directly combat the source of the gangs and bad behavior, rather than try to control people's behavior. That is the distinction you've seemed to miss here. Controlling others' behavior is ineffective at best. It's treating symptoms with pain killers while ignoring the source of the problem. It's weak leadership, and,…

It is not a radical idea. That type of massive wealth transfer is only possible on the federal level, where it simply has no political chance. All the non federal governments can do is like removing bus stops (or letting drug addicted communities flourish when the pendulum swings the other way).

Welp, we don't have the political capital, guess we can't fix anything, only thing left to do is beat the shit out of poor people in the streets. Society!

Re: Fighting crime by checking buildings, not suspects

#139
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the lawsuit against Egbert, Boule argued Egbert had retaliated against him in violation of his First Amendment rights and that he had entered his private property, refused to leave and pushed him to the ground violating his Fourth Amendment rights. As far as I understand it the decision does not contest that Boule's 4th amendment rights were violated, but it doesn't extend the right to sue a federal officer from…

It actually seems to say that they have recourse through an established process with congress and that the courts decline to override this process. Apparently Boule availed himself of this process but was dissatisfied with the results (I guess because though it prompted an internal investigation of the agent it didn't result in any damages being awarded to him?) Basically it sounds like if you don't agree that border…

"availed himself of the process"

Literally the ruling here is that the border patrol can't be sued because instead they will investigate themselves. Guess how that investigation tends to go?

Re: Fighting crime by checking buildings, not suspects

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a radical idea. That type of massive wealth transfer is only possible on the federal level, where it simply has no political chance. All the non federal governments can do is like removing bus stops (or letting drug addicted communities flourish when the pendulum swings the other way).

Welp, we don't have the political capital, guess we can't fix anything, only thing left to do is beat the shit out of poor people in the streets. Society!

The problem is lack of economic capital at the non federal level since there is no way to control immigration.

The solution is canvassing, campaigning, voting, and running for federal office where that change can be affected.

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