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They Think It's Murder

richarddawkins.com

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Re: They Think It's Murder

#31

Post by Beltalowda »

Jfjfnkdjdj wrote: post #8

Science thinks life begins at fertilization too. https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.ht...

I agree with that point of view, but I think you need to distinguish between "life" and a "human being". "Life" in general is notoriously tricky to define precisely.

It is, for example, perfectly possible to amputate someone's hand an keep it alive by feeding it some type of artificial blood; not sure if it's currently possible with the state of technology, but there is nothing stopping this in principle. I think it would be accurate to say that this hand is "alive", but is it also a human being worthy of the same protections that you or I have? I don't think many people would argue for this.

You don't need to think of exotic experiments either; we shed all sort of living biological material all the time, and no one is concerned with the rights of this.

So when does a "human being" begin? I don't have any clear answer; that question is even more difficult than trying to define "life". But I do think it's important to think of it in these terms.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#32

Post by Aune »

maratc wrote: post #7

Not only "They" think it's murder, we as a society tend to think it's murder too. Here's my argument: in most jurisdictions, a killing of a pregnant woman brings harsher sentence than a killing of non-pregnant woman. In some, it just doubles the crime (double homicide, double manslaughter, etc.) Judging from this, we as a society see at least some value in the life of a foetus. The issue is a complicated one. We seem…

Certainly people who suffer a miscarriage when trying to have children suffer deeply. It is clear then that they lost more than some human tissue.

Also if you beat a woman causing her to misscarry, then we look upon that quite a lot harsher than if no miscarriage occured.

In general we don't tend to value human life or rights when it is inconvenient to do so though.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#33

Post by gonzo41 »

brightball wrote: post #24
maratc wrote: post #7

Not only "They" think it's murder, we as a society tend to think it's murder too. Here's my argument: in most jurisdictions, a killing of a pregnant woman brings harsher sentence than a killing of non-pregnant woman. In some, it just doubles the crime (double homicide, double manslaughter, etc.) Judging from this, we as a society see at least some value in the life of a foetus. The issue is a complicated one. We seem…

This is really the core of it and ultimately the decision to overturn is going to force legislators to finally codify exactly what the rules are. It’s been avoided to this point because both political sides preferred to fund raise off of the issue. Long overdue.

In the meantime, whilst there's debate on legislation, women will die from ectopic pregnancies and other women's health issues that require the termination of a non viable pregnancy. It's very grim.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#34

Post by fritztastic »

benbenolson wrote: post #12
JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #2

In religions that believe in hell based on life choices, the ultimate smart move would be all fetuses aborted. The chance of heaven is 100% that way. What chance of heaven do we get if we are actually born? Maybe 10% at most? Billions are being condemned to eternal damnation if the fetuses are allowed to be born and live a life for at most about 100 years. That seems incredibly selfish and silly and short-sighted. We…

The vast majority of Christians in the United States believe in salvation by faith alone, not by works.

Seems like a rather strange thing to believe, given that they're essentially worshipping a being that would send an unborn person (in their belief) to suffer for eternity for the transgression of not being able to prove their worthiness of salvation (faith).

Re: They Think It's Murder

#35

Post by Nrnfkfnrn »

mhh__ wrote: post #26
Jfjfnkdjdj wrote: post #8

Science thinks life begins at fertilization too. https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.ht...

Who is "science"? And also bacteria are alive

Read the source

"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception)."

"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."

Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#36

Post by 9991 »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #25
k__ wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the properties of a soul? How does it work with twins from one egg? Does it split?

The primary property of a soul is its soulfulness. An egg split into twins because it had too much soulfulness for one person.

By that logic, chimeras and gingers have too little soulfulness?

Re: They Think It's Murder

#37

Post by clord »

I take the liberal position that pro choice fades into a right to life, especially around viability but the fade is still ongoing even then (takes more and more extreme circumstances to abort an embryo that is less dependent)

That said, the late-term and even post-term abortions that are happening now mean that if I am forced to choose between complete restriction and late/post, I will support whatever laws restrict late/post even if it’s overly restrictive. It is insane that these things are being conflated under the same term and that is shifting liberals such as myself farther from leftists just because the extreme position is so abhorrent.

Elon’s meme with the left running further left and then calling everyone else bigots is relevant here.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#38

Post by [deleted] »

maratc wrote: post #7

Not only "They" think it's murder, we as a society tend to think it's murder too. Here's my argument: in most jurisdictions, a killing of a pregnant woman brings harsher sentence than a killing of non-pregnant woman. In some, it just doubles the crime (double homicide, double manslaughter, etc.) Judging from this, we as a society see at least some value in the life of a foetus. The issue is a complicated one. We seem…

[deleted]

Re: They Think It's Murder

#39

Post by skinpop »

ALittleLight wrote: post #14

If you don't know, or can't prove, when personhood establishes, then there's at least some chance you are, in fact, killing a person. In my estimation the abortionist doesn't care about the possibility of killing a person because there are no consequences for it.

You don't think women who go through abortion face any consequences?

Re: They Think It's Murder

#40

Post by hotpotamus »

maratc wrote: post #7

Not only "They" think it's murder, we as a society tend to think it's murder too. Here's my argument: in most jurisdictions, a killing of a pregnant woman brings harsher sentence than a killing of non-pregnant woman. In some, it just doubles the crime (double homicide, double manslaughter, etc.) Judging from this, we as a society see at least some value in the life of a foetus. The issue is a complicated one. We seem…

Another complication - most of the recent laws against abortion place punishment on the abortion providers, not the women themselves, so they don't seem to think that the woman is culpable in ordering a murder.
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