They Think It's Murder
richarddawkins.com
They Think It's Murder
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Re: They Think It's Murder
#2In religions that believe in hell based on life choices, the ultimate smart move would be all fetuses aborted. The chance of heaven is 100% that way. What chance of heaven do we get if we are actually born? Maybe 10% at most? Billions are being condemned to eternal damnation if the fetuses are allowed to be born and live a life for at most about 100 years. That seems incredibly selfish and silly and short-sighted. We are talking eternity in heaven here. 100 years on this rock is nothing compared to the risk of losing the correct eternity.
So I don’t ever understand the viewpoint of fundamentalists on abortion. It seems like a failure to believe strongly enough in their religious views. Sure maybe the abortion doctor goes to hell, but he is really a dark Jesus figure that has sent multitudes straight to heaven.
Re: They Think It's Murder
#3If you think all fates are fixed and invariant, then some are meant to die in birth, some are meant to die before and some are meant to live. Their actions and those of their parents are fixed before they occur. Thus, no penalties are incurred or even possible.
If, however, free will exists, then the aggregate sum of good and evil will be weighed and your fate determined. Essentially all humans will live an ambiguous life and end up relying on forgiveness.
Or, it might be that this world is all there is and so behaviour that maximizes the situation of the most people is the optimum choice.
Edit: imagine how things would have been different if the ruling followed the guidelines on a different Xtian religion. Jehovah Witnesses forbid transfusions - lose the right of both abortions and transfusions going forward.
Re: They Think It's Murder
#4The thing that gets me about this is that evangelicals considered this whole area to be an issue for catholics, and nothing to do with them and nothing of interest.
But it was made a wedge issue, and became an artifact of the culture wars, and now here we are.
Re: They Think It's Murder
#5Re: They Think It's Murder
#6In religions that believe in hell based on life choices, the ultimate smart move would be all fetuses aborted. The chance of heaven is 100% that way. What chance of heaven do we get if we are actually born? Maybe 10% at most? Billions are being condemned to eternal damnation if the fetuses are allowed to be born and live a life for at most about 100 years. That seems incredibly selfish and silly and short-sighted. We…
I wrote a short story about this: https://www.spacelove.xyz/writing/wake-up-in-the-sky/
Re: They Think It's Murder
#7Not only "They" think it's murder, we as a society tend to think it's murder too.
Here's my argument: in most jurisdictions, a killing of a pregnant woman brings harsher sentence than a killing of non-pregnant woman. In some, it just doubles the crime (double homicide, double manslaughter, etc.) Judging from this, we as a society see at least some value in the life of a foetus.
The issue is a complicated one. We seem to believe fetuses have the right to be born. We also seem to believe that women have the right to their bodies. In the case of abortions, these two rights cannot be achieved at the same time. These are "competing" rights. And while the question of "which right shall prevail" is a classic one for the courts to decide on, people will always go with what they "believe" is right, and disregard the opposing opinion.
Re: They Think It's Murder
#8Science thinks life begins at fertilization too.
https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.ht...
Re: They Think It's Murder
#9It is murder, simple as that. The moment a sperm fertilizes an egg, a new unique genetic material is formed, which is damn near the closest thing we have to an objective standard of when a new human life is started.
Embryo is a stage of development in a human being (and many other life forms on this planet). Maybe it's not synonymous with baby, I could grant that, and allow for baby to represent a different and later stage of development (possibly after birth), but even if I grant this, I'll still say killing that embryo is akin to murder. (Calling it a baby or child regardless of being inside the womb is still fairly natural and common in everyday speech.)
There's a grave fallacy in the article where it tries to compare an acorn to an oak tree. No, the acorn is not an oak tree. No more than a baby is an adult. But where the acorn is still oak, a baby is still human. Further fallacies are made as it tries to compare (and maybe equate?) human embryos with that of pigs and cows. Yeah... no. A woman is not going to give birth to a cow. That doesn't happen.
The article doesn't really do anything to establish anything new. It's only trying to dehumanize human development before birth.
Four ethical alternatives to abortion:
* Abstinence
* Contraception
* Adoption
* Motherhood
The last of these is the most preferential, and none of them involve murdering other humans.
Re: They Think It's Murder
#10The thing that gets me about this is that evangelicals considered this whole area to be an issue for catholics, and nothing to do with them and nothing of interest. But it was made a wedge issue, and became an artifact of the culture wars, and now here we are.
Opposition to abortion by the american evangelical protestant polity was a deliberate political choice, and it’s younger than the happy meal.
from a 1979 issue of Christianity Today on contraception and abortion — in Billy Graham’s magazine for editor Harold “the battle for the bible” Lindsell:
God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed. The Law plainly exacts: “If a man kills any human life he will be put to death” (Lev. 24:17). But according to Exodus 21:22-24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense. … Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.
10 years later, everyone acted like it was never said.
Inerrancy and plain meaning for me, but not for thee, indeed.