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Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

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Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#181

Post by maemre »

fairity wrote: post #19

I think too many of us believe that intelligence is valuable, in and of itself. Instead, I think we should value personal excellence. That is, making the most of the intelligence you’re given. The arc of intelligence in Flowers of Algernon is the same arc that we’ll all experience over our lifetime. With old age, we, too, will lose our intelligence. If we value intelligence, in and of itself, we’ll eventually face a…

I like this reading of the story a lot (although I didn't read it this way when I read the book originally). It reminds me of how Camus approaches to making peace with the absurd: recognizing the absurd and creating a personal meaning in order to get free from the meaninglessness (I might be totally off base with this interpretation of Camus).

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#182

Post by randycupertino »

johnny_reilly wrote: post #55

This book changed me. I was an idle eight year old, and my school didn't give us homework to do. So my father decided to set me homework of his own devising, which on one occasion was reading Flowers for Algernon. I was moved by the story of a man who had little natural ability, straining to make the best of what he had. Then becoming smarter than everyone around him, and then what follows. There's many things to tak…

It's such a wonderful book! Beautifully written, haunting, lovely and sad all at the same time. One of my all-time favorite stories.

"I don’t know what’s worse: to not know what you are and be happy, or to become what you’ve always wanted to be, and feel alone."

One interesting thing re: the novel is the disease Charlie has, PKU is generally screened for in infants today and treated with dietary changes: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022202X1...

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#183

Post by rincebrain »

I've not read this, despite many people I trust suggesting it to me, because I am familiar at a high level with the flow of the story, and having once experienced a vaguely similarly unfortunate event[1] to the latter half, I do not want to see how I react to reading it unless I am prepared to burn a lot of time on the emotional fallout.

[1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16849999

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#184

Post by dontbenebby »

sslapec wrote: post #105
dontbenebby wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry about your brother, I had a friend die waiting on an organ transplant when I was in single digits and I have no siblings. People focus a lot of things like being nice regardless of race or social class, but trauma holds you back and no algorithm takes it into account that I've seen, just measures things to the side. I'm glad you had a supportive leader who gave you something enriching for the soul to read.

That's kind, thank you. I'm sorry for your friend. I hope you did cope with the trauma somehow.

I'm glad you thought it was kind, I try to be when I can.

We were in single digits, agewise. Appalachian youths, forever at risk, but this was before the internet became what it is now.

At first I coped by trying to get people to opt in to organ donation, because he had been waiting for a liver.

Then later I tried to get people registered to vote, so we could change the system that traumatized us.

And finally, after many years of being a peaceful activist, I put the word out that if they are going to seize power and never return it, then every promise made to that day is void and someone like me might make every piece of electronics in their McMansions or municipalities fail like they're cameras in Metropolitan Correctional Center just before they get in the ground with Jeffrey Epstein if that's what it takes to ensure folks never abuse their access ever again.

(In short: I coped with it by becoming a dissident, but that does not bring you joy, and I very purposefully avoided working with anyone under 18 on these matters because it is unethical to teach children that such a life is cool or fun, rather than a path that should be chosen as an absolute last resort.)

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#185

Post by Ma8ee »

quanto wrote: post #12

She said dont be scared Charlie you done so much with so little I think you deserv it most of all. Charlie was a man with a good heart, motivation, and self-awareness, and yet the world was not so kind to him. The story reminds me of something I read somewhere: be kind to less intelligent people -- the world is already not so kind to them.

I prefer the quote from Vonnegut:

> God damn it, you've got to be kind.

Being kind to is not the exception you grant some special people, but what you are supposed to be by default.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#186

Post by Ma8ee »

pmoriarty wrote: post #58
solardev wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One layer deeper, it was also illustrative of how the supposedly smarter people (the researchers and teacher) also reacted to his journey, and of who's "allowed" to be smart without being perceived as threatening. It's not as straightforward as just "jocks vs nerds", but how the scientists work with each other, how the teacher treats him vs the researchers, how the lab mouse is alternately thought of either disposabl…

"American culture isn't just athletic, it's also quite shallow: everyone projects success and happiness but suffer deeper down and are afraid to introspect, share vulnerabilities, or form meaningful communities." There isn't just one American culture, there are many... with people not infrequently belonging to many subcultures. We should be wary of painting America (or any other country) with one broad brush.

Of course, but there are some themes and tropes that was rarely found outside American movies, and if you now find them in other western movies, it’s because of the disproportionate influence American culture have had since the end of WW2.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#187

Post by killerstorm »

djsavvy wrote: post #73

This story hit me hard when I read it as a kid. When I was young, I read another story with a similar emotional texture that I've been trying to find again for years now. It had a mentally challenged boy who worked in a restaurant with a lobster tank in the front, and the boy loved the lobster as a pet and stopped the restaurant staff from killing and serving the lobster. But one day when the boy was gone the lobster…

What hits me hard is that the author emphasized that Charlie had the strongest emotional connection with Algernon, the mouse.

I guess the reason for that is not only that Charlie saw himself in Algernon, as they were in a similar situation. But Algernon was the only being which did judge Charlie and his IQ.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#188

Post by samhyde69 »

ta8645 wrote: post #52
quanto wrote: post #12

She said dont be scared Charlie you done so much with so little I think you deserv it most of all. Charlie was a man with a good heart, motivation, and self-awareness, and yet the world was not so kind to him. The story reminds me of something I read somewhere: be kind to less intelligent people -- the world is already not so kind to them.

There is a prevailing contempt these days for less intelligent and less educated people, that is very unseemly and disheartening.

No post body was provided.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#189

Post by softcactus »

kragen wrote: post #165
softcactus wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly how I felt. It explores what motivations of a super-intelligence might be in a way that I hadn't seen before. I understand the commenter's sentiment though--it's difficult to read an earnest story about a super intelligent trans-human because the archetype of "cool and collected super genius" has been done to death and has become cringeworthy.

The most interesting book I've found on the motivations of a super-genius is Notes on the Collection of Transfers . https://www.sidis.net/TransfersContents.htm

I'm not sure I understand. I think I'm missing some context.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#190

Post by tzs »

blader wrote: post #43

Ted Chiang wrote a short story inspired by Flowers for Algernon ("Understand") that explores what might happen if a guy just never stopped getting smarter: https://web.archive.org/web/20140527121332/http://www.infini... I love Flowers for Algernon, but Understand is my favorite short story of all time.

Another interesting story featuring enhanced intelligence is Poul Anderson's novel "Brain Wave".

Briefly, there is an energy damping field that projects in a beam from something near the center of our galaxy. One of the effects of this field is to slow down the speed of neural activity. The Sun's orbit around the galaxy takes it through this field periodically.

When it enters the field the effect is to make everything with a brain about 1/5th as smart as it was, which usually results in a mass extinction of any species that depended on its brain to survive. That's what did in the dinosaurs for instance which had been near human intelligence before that (the book is from 1954 which is before we figured out what really did them in).

Humans evolved while the Earth was in the field, evolving neurons and brain structures that can get to normal human intelligence even with the degrading effects of the field.

The start of the novel is set when Earth moves out of the field and so over the next few weeks everything with a brain gets about 5 times smarter than it was before.

That has lots of consequences. For example a lot of how we handle animals is based on the animals not being smart. It gets a lot harder to be a pig farmer, say, when your pigs get human genius level intelligence. Of course the farmer is a lot smarter too, but still it will take some time to upgrade the farm to deal with super-genius pigs and the pigs aren't going to just idly wait for that.

The novel looks at that and a ton of other changes as Earth adapts and develops to deal with this.

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