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Ask HN: Any certification that is worth it? Legitimately helped your career?

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Re: Ask HN: Any certification that is worth it? Legitimately helped your career?

#351

Post by myself248 »

robcohen wrote: post #11

I collect a lot of certs for fun, but most have not been helpful. I still like to collect them anyway. I think OSCP was the most legitimately useful in tech https://www.offensive-security.com/pwk-oscp/ PMP has been useful to take on Project Manager roles, but really PrM roles aren't all that exciting to begin with. Still helps when you want to run your own projects. I'm currently studying to be a certified parliament…

What's it take to be a locksmith?

In some states, carrying lockpicks is presumptive guilt unless you're a locksmith, but I never figured out whether that's a certification or just a business license or what.

Re: Ask HN: Any certification that is worth it? Legitimately helped your career?

#352

Post by 2snakes »

evgen wrote: post #324
imwillofficial wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also disagree with your first comment. Large amounts of difficult certs have never been a negative signal and I’ve been doing this for like 20 years. Especially in cyber security where a wide breadth of various knowledge is needed, certs can really help show who has the ”full-stack” so to speak. That being said, 20+ CompTIA cents isn’t going to move the needle for me. I say all that to say “it depends on the cert”

Actually cyber security is one area where a lot of certs are a strong negative signal. They basically broadcast course-taking and cert-chasing over real world experience. If you have an OSCP cert I will treat that as a potentially good signal, but if your CV includes CISSP I will walk in to an interview with low expectations and if it has CEH or similar wastes of time the recruiting lead would have known to filter th…

SANS certs? CCIE? GSE? OSEE?

Re: Ask HN: Any certification that is worth it? Legitimately helped your career?

#353

Post by CraigJPerry »

I was one of the top scores on the RHCE in the UK when 5.5 was current. I like to think it helped but honestly don't know if it swayed anyone.

I also scored really high in the Sun Certified System Administrator exam for Solaris 10 - i can categorically say that didn't help. Thanks Oracle & RIP Slowlaris (i jest, 10 wasn't slow, 10 was the ultimate OS, lightyears ahead of its time).

Re: Ask HN: Any certification that is worth it? Legitimately helped your career?

#354

Post by hcazz »

t_mann wrote: post #293
scubbo wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When it comes to hiring [...] any certificate outside of what is expected in your industry does more harm than good Huh - this is surprising to hear. I would have thought that random extra certifications would act as indicators that a) you're a naturally focused and capable person (rather than just cosplaying one for salary), and b) you have interests outside of work (so will be a more well-rounded and pleasant per…

Being focused and having lots of random interests are mutually exclusive, that should be obvious. Having lots of unrelated certificates signals the latter. If it's the case for you, only mention what's relevant for the job or what actually reflects your personality (so if you're a serious scuba diver, by all means mention it under 'Interests'; but if you got a certificate on vacation 5 years ago and have haven't done…

>Being focused and having lots of random interests are mutually exclusive, that should be obvious.

If I had a hiring manager say this to me in an interview, I would not want to work for that manager. Random interests outside of work have zero influence on a candidate's ability to perform a job well. I enjoy working with coworkers who live fulfilling lives outside their 9-5, but outside of illegal activity, I wouldn't let their outside life influence my decision to hire them. If they find value in playing video games every hour outside work, that's fine. If they want to obtain random certs and skills, that's fine too.

I'm also in the process of getting my private pilot's license. Do you expect me to start flying in the middle of the day instead of working? If anything, being able to focus on a target goal that can take 6+ months to accomplish indicate focus and drive more than a lack of it.

The SCUBA diving example mentioned is an interesting life experience for someone to have, and doesn't deserve someone gatekeeping whether or not the individual is "serious" about their hobbies or experiences.

Re: Ask HN: Any certification that is worth it? Legitimately helped your career?

#356

Post by _8j50 »

abeyer wrote: post #317
_8j50 wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Your frustration is at least understandable, but personal attacks because you disagree with someone's hiring process are not appropriate, not helpful, and just going to make it even harder for you to get hired if anyone in a decision making role sees them. I'll also echo what others have said, in that certs are commonly used by people trying to compensate for a lack of actual skills. That's not always true, but it is…

You misunderstand, I have no problem getting hired but I know how hard it was to even get a call at first because of jerks like the person I was commenting to. I normally would agree that a personal attack isn't warranted but what they said is worthy of one. They are affecting people's lives based on bullshit correlations and instinct? And they work in tech? Really, my remarks should be taken as a response to their demonstrated character not their hiring process. Correlation is not causation, anyone near a technical field should know that. If 90% of applicants are shitty then of course most of them that get screen based on resume to begin with will have certs. It is one thing to say "I don't care about certs" this person is saying "I disqualify people if they have certs" does he do that with degrees too? Plenty of crappy degrees folks in any field! How shall I respond to a person punishing people for working hard and trying to demonstrate their knowledge? Deciding peoples livelihood based in his or her laziness to pick up a phone and ask questions?

On second thought maybe my words were too harsh for HN. I just don't know a polite way of responding to this. And on the other end of the spectrum there is another ass that says you are shy of one cert, 10 is not enough. We need a guy with this particular cert. or they use this shit to mask their prejudice and find a way to keep people out that aren't part of their country club.

It is categorically unfair and the intent is at best based on laziness. If people are getting certs then why is hiring manager not smart enough to ask challenging practical questions and measure their thinking process? And then they brag about it.

Re: Ask HN: Any certification that is worth it? Legitimately helped your career?

#357

Post by oneepic »

biztos wrote: post #333
GuB-42 wrote: post #186

Driver's license. Maybe it sounds obvious, but if you don't have a license, you are crippling yourself. Even if you don't have a car, not having a license means you don't even have the option of renting one. Also, is is so "obvious" that if an employer notices that you don't have it, he will wonder why. Are you too stupid to drive? Crippled in some way? Economic problems? Have some criminal history? Alcoholic? You ma…

> Are you too stupid to drive? Crippled in some way? Economic problems? Have some criminal history? Alcoholic? I recently got my driver’s license, first one, at an age far far above the norm for America, even if you factor in New York. In a long and so far pretty successful career in tech, this has come up exactly once in a professional context, and it was my fault because I was asking about the lack of public transi…

Same boat. I also recently got my 1st license, relatively late. I will miss being able to break the ice by bringing up my learner's permits across multiple US states.

Re: Ask HN: Any certification that is worth it? Legitimately helped your career?

#358

Post by [deleted] »

mudrockbestgirl wrote: post #49

This will not apply to all companies, but for our hiring decisions certs have an adverse effect. If someone puts many certifications on their resume my expectations are lower and I likely won't consider them for interviews. It's a negative signal in my experience. Your time is better spent working on side projects, contributing to open source, writing a blog, etc. I.e. do real-world stuff instead of wasting time on a…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Any certification that is worth it? Legitimately helped your career?

#359

Post by myself248 »

colangelod wrote: post #314

I'm, going to echo a bit of whats in the comments to robcohen's post but the single most productive cert I hold is my pilots license. I do not fly for a living, Im a software engineer (mostly). I hold other certs, some technical, others non technical both work related and non work related by a sizable margin my PPL is the the most productive: Back story: when I started working for my self my first client was a pilot,…

This is interesting, because a lot of it is similar to what I've long said about having an amateur radio license.

I list it on my resume as "Holder of FCC-issued radio operator license under Part 97, Extra class". For muggles, it's the beginning that sounds impressive. For other hams, it's the end.

And every. single. interviewer. has brought it up and asked about it. In technical roles, often one of the interviewers is also a ham or at least fairly aware of it. That's a natural branch to talk about side projects and hands-on competencies, which can otherwise be hard to introduce.

It requires some study, nothing to the level of a PPL, but most folks can't walk in off the street and get anything higher than a Tech license. General-class usually takes concerted study, and Extra is basically a thimble-full of college physics and a whole whack of practical electronics and RF safety.

Radio is mysterious to a lot of people. Heck, a lot of people don't even think of wifi and GPS and walkie-talkies and WDET as being the same thing. Being both competent with the tech itself, and facile with explaining it, makes one instantly valuable in a great many settings.

The privileges granted with a license are insane. I sometimes use the analogy that: Imagine everyone walks everywhere, or you can buy a little e-scooter that's speed limited to 2 miles per hour. All the fasteners are welded and it's illegal to modify your scooter. That's FRS, wifi, etc. Pay a fee and you can get licensed for GMRS, which is a 10mph scooter, but it's still welded shut because there's no technical competency required for that license. Or, demonstrate technical competency on the ham exam, and you get a license that allows you to drive a supercar at 1500mph, and you're allowed and encouraged to modify anything you like or build it from scratch if that's your thing, and they when you self-certify its roadworthiness, they just take your word for it because you hold that license and you probably know how to tune it and not hurt people and stuff. It's utterly bonkers.

Sadly the community around amateur radio is nowhere near as elite as you make out general aviation to be; there's substantial overlap with the wannabe-cop cosplayers, and I find the most interesting hams tend to not spend a lot of time at ham gatherings. There are some magnificent technical fora, to be sure, but they are the exception.

Re: Ask HN: Any certification that is worth it? Legitimately helped your career?

#360

Post by a4isms »

ElemenoPicuares wrote: post #176
mudrockbestgirl wrote: post #49

This will not apply to all companies, but for our hiring decisions certs have an adverse effect. If someone puts many certifications on their resume my expectations are lower and I likely won't consider them for interviews. It's a negative signal in my experience. Your time is better spent working on side projects, contributing to open source, writing a blog, etc. I.e. do real-world stuff instead of wasting time on a…

Be careful about the bias in single-metric gatekeeping strategies like this. Contributing to open source projects, having side projects, et al are pursuits of leisure. Certificates are possibly the only foot in the door for folks working multiple jobs with kids, etc. and the government often pays the tuition for low income folks. Once you’ve got them, even if you’re more established, it would be crazy to leave them o…

> Contributing to open source projects, having side projects, et al are pursuits of leisure.

This is an old anti-pattern: tests that sound like they're about competence, but they're actually about "culture fit."

Example: Speaking at conferences. This sounds like social proof you know something about the industry, and have communication skills to boot. In many cases it actually means you are good at networking, have leisure time available to attend conferences, and get invited back to speak at more conferences because you're likeable and contribute to the conference's social scene.

In my own case, I have spoken and even keynoted multiple conferences. But I don't think speaking at conferences means much when hiring, unless I'm hiring an evangelist or community manager. If I'm hiring a programmer, I want to know whether they can program, nit whether they can talk about programming.

Anyways, I support your thesis that some (or even many) single-metric gatekeeping strategies that don't measure the actual skill required by the job are bad, and I suggest that many of them test for culture, not competence.

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