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College has been oversold

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Re: College has been oversold

#121

Post by xiaoma »

maratd wrote: post #38
joshklein wrote: post #27

I have a similar conclusion but slightly different reasoning. And I want to defend liberal arts majors a bit, since I'm one of them. To me, the problem is that most people don't view college as an investment in their future, but rather as a temporary place to delay choices. Certainly, it is positioned as an investment by educators, and it is probably true for science & engineering degrees, but do students approach it…

> Really, it's a cultural problem. No, it's an economic one. > I have a liberal arts degree from an "elite private university". Ok. Let's make the assumption that you're at least moderately intelligent and would be able to get a job for 40K from the bat. 40K * 4 = 160K College tuition is 40K itself at an "elite private university". Then you add living expenses, books, food, etc. and you have another 25K. That's 65K.…

>College tuition is 40K itself at an "elite private university". Then you add living expenses, books, food, etc. and you have another 25K. That's 65K.

This is a bit disingenuous. Elite universities are almost universally free for those who need the help.

>Yup. Half a mil to learn about Poetry Writing. Sorry, but that's just silly.

>I would much rather my kid spend his time working in a small business and learning about entrepreneurship hands-on, than pissing away untold fortunes to sleep in a class about poetry. You can slip the kid some Robert Frost after work.

Money has such a weak correlation with happiness that the argument needs to be fleshed out a bit more to be convincing. I've known many engineers in my life and I've seen no evidence that they are happier than those who have pursued the arts. Life isn't a video game in which money is a score. Heck even in a video game, it's rarely about the accumulation of money.

Even in terms of building a lasting legacy, there is much to be said for the arts over business. Byron will be remembered long after the Vanderbilts are forgotten.

Re: College has been oversold

#123

Post by re_todd »

kabdib wrote: post #66
wanorris wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making everyone get through 2 semesters of calculus and a real probability class frankly sounds like a great idea for reforming high school . Why they can't take kids through "high school" algebra in middle school and have them ready to take more serious math in high school is a mystery to me. From what I gather, a considerably accelerated math curriculum is common in other countries. Is there any reason other than i…

I didn't get calculus until I went to a junior college. I think that JC cost me about $800 for a year -- living with parents helps. After a year at the junior college (which I define by "They had a little IBM mainframe, and punch cards") I was a lot more ready for the Large Cow College (30K students, much beefier mainframe with actual terminals for post-first-year courses). I'm convinced it's calculus that separates…

I don't know why more people don't recommend community/junior colleges. You can cut the price of education almost in half if you start out 2 years at a JC.

Re: College has been oversold

#124

Post by Eeko »

jhamburger wrote: post #110

A lot of people seem very smug about ridiculing liberal arts majors for their life decisions. Please realize that most of us working in software are also lucky enough to be paid well and love what we do, we followed our hearts AND our heads. Imagine a world where there were no software jobs and you needed a PhD in french poetry to get a real job?

Very true. None of my pals who chose software really came in for the money. Though I know a few lawyers and MDs who claim to be in purely for the cash. I don't know should we even wish for that kind of culture (comes with financial prestige...) in STEM-education

But the thing is, there is a lot of people who know they'd rather be playing with children in a kindergarten, doing archeology or reading books all day - but knew that following PURELY your heart is not the smart & rational thing to do when we signed up. Part of the problem is, that libart-schools are filled with kids who thought stuff will just work itself out, like it has always happened for them. Romantically just following ones dreams to the end.

I honestly don't know how else we could be sharing the lesson of pragmatism to the newer generation if we can't point out the consequences of everyone chasing their hopes at the same time. An imaginative person figures out new goals and dreams every day anyhow...

Re: College has been oversold

#125

Post by harryh »

keiferski wrote: post #3

A liberal arts education is just as worth it today as it was 300 years ago. The current problem is that the cost of a liberal arts degree has spiraled out of control. There's no reason why an English or Philosophy degree needs to cost $15k a year. Making everyone an engineer or scientist isn't the answer.

> There's no reason why an English or Philosophy degree needs to cost $15k a year.

Sure there is. It's called Baumol's Cost Disease.

Now of course some of those engineers & scientists are working on things like khan academy and other methods of attacking that problem. The downside is that the demand for English or Philosophy majors will only further erode (what do you do with a philosophy degree when there are fewer jobs teaching the next generation of philosophy students?).

No one is saying that everyone should be an engineer or scientist, but it's blatantly obvious that moving the ratio a good bit is, in fact, the answer. English and Philosphy majors can't get jobs while some kids with CS degrees are getting close to making 100k/yr straight out of undergrad. The market is speaking. Listen to it.

Re: College has been oversold

#126

Post by gerggerg »

viscanti wrote: post #47
gerggerg wrote: post #19

lets not forget that all this increased enrollment increases the price of education and puts a strain on resources for all of us. Not only were there slightly less comp sci graduates but they grossly overpaid for their education compared to graduates in 1985. One of the biggest bummers about that chart is the increase in debt it represents.

False. Several complex factors are at play here, but supply/demand effects are not the root cause. This Forbes article does a good job of explaining things. http://www.forbes.com/2010/08/01/rising-cost-education-opini... TLDR; it turns out that comparing educational costs relative to the inflation rate is inaccurate. Efficiency gains in almost every other domain have artificially lowered the overall inflation rate. A…

2 things.

1) I don't know how you think you can start a discussion by shouting the word false at someone.

2) While I should definitely have made my post seem more of a conjecture than a fact the article you link to is also mainly conjecture. Be it though conjecture of two experienced men.

When I went to college, nearly all the programs were impacted. Because of this the schools needed to hire more (good) teachers. Teachers don't have a bulk rate. All of the schools facilities experience more wear and tear and need to be upgraded to handle more humans. The school i went to is still impacted. More students than the school can handle increases tuition rates for all. You don't pay less for an art degree than a comp sci degree.

Re: College has been oversold

#127

Post by bambax »

maratd wrote: post #38
joshklein wrote: post #27

I have a similar conclusion but slightly different reasoning. And I want to defend liberal arts majors a bit, since I'm one of them. To me, the problem is that most people don't view college as an investment in their future, but rather as a temporary place to delay choices. Certainly, it is positioned as an investment by educators, and it is probably true for science & engineering degrees, but do students approach it…

> Really, it's a cultural problem. No, it's an economic one. > I have a liberal arts degree from an "elite private university". Ok. Let's make the assumption that you're at least moderately intelligent and would be able to get a job for 40K from the bat. 40K * 4 = 160K College tuition is 40K itself at an "elite private university". Then you add living expenses, books, food, etc. and you have another 25K. That's 65K.…

You're counting living expenses twice. If he hadn't gone to college he'd have had to eat all the same; so it's more 320K than 420, and we're below a third of a mil instead of near half.

Still a lot for learning to write poetry but that's not all he did...

Re: College has been oversold

#128

Post by _delirium »

anamax wrote: post #74
timjahn wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"so that they only work 9 months a year" Which, of course, they don't.

> Which, of course, they don't. That's right - many of them have summer jobs.

In some places that's possible, but in many places it's pretty impractical. At the high school I attended, summer vacation is June 1 - August 22, but teacher in-service days are: June 2-10 (end of semester wrap-up), July 11-15 (make-up days for students who missed finals), and August 15-19 (pre-semester preparation), which leaves two discontiguous 4-week breaks.

Re: College has been oversold

#129

Post by Fliko »

[deleted] wrote: post #120
mattmcknight wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But what I learned in those courses, being inspired by amazing faculty was more on the soft skills side: Self-confidence, critical reading, critical writing, argumentation, strong communication skills, problem-solving, strong analytical research abilities, ability to lead groups etc etc..." But couldn't you have learned those skills with another degree as well? So, wouldn't you have been better off learning those sk…

[deleted]

You get the same interactions and knowledge with any degree at a decent enough school. Your promotions don't speak so much about your education but more so about you as a person.

Re: College has been oversold

#130

Post by philwelch »

[deleted] wrote: post #109
joshklein wrote: post #27

I have a similar conclusion but slightly different reasoning. And I want to defend liberal arts majors a bit, since I'm one of them. To me, the problem is that most people don't view college as an investment in their future, but rather as a temporary place to delay choices. Certainly, it is positioned as an investment by educators, and it is probably true for science & engineering degrees, but do students approach it…

[deleted]

Case in point, Andrew Mason, CEO of Groupon, what did he study? Oh yeah, he studied Music at Northwestern...

I'm curious: where did Mr. Ponzi get his degree?

Yes, it's pretty obvious that if you get into a name-brand university and manage to teach yourself marketable skills on the side, you can be pretty successful. What if you don't get into a name-brand university? You're screwed for life and your best shot at success is to work for someone like you? No thanks.

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