Live data from Hacker News

If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

anildash.com

31–40 of 54 posts

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#31
post #6

I look around at every. single. internet community on the planet and I struggle to find a single one that isn't full of assholes. Including the very space I am on right now. And yet - when I step outside and go talk to people and hang out with my friends they suddenly recede into the shadows. Sure, here and there somebody will be an asshole but for the most part everyone is nice, helpful, and (especially in my friend…

There are spaces on the internet where people are nice to each other, it's just they're usually heavily moderated or invite-only where there's a consequence to being an asshole. People don't act nice on the public internet because there's nothing disincentivizing being mean.

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#32
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a value. It means that the incentives of the user and the producer are aligned: to enjoy the time in a community, rather than have one try to extract money. Aside from that, not everything needs to be a business, and even then, not everything needs to be profitable.

By that logic lets stop paying street sweepers and sanitation workers. See, their incenitives are mutually aligned with the interests of those who walk the streets, so there is no reason to "extract money". Sure thing, but the article in question EXPLICITLY mentions "You should make a budget that supports having a good community, or you should find another line of work.", which means that one way or another funding i…

I'm sure if you stopped paying the street sweepers, you'd find out that a lot of them don't care about sanitation, and the rest can't pick up the burden. That's why they get paid.

Even then, I'd rather have one of those motivated by cleanliness service my area. Just the same way, I'll choose a forum that's not monetized.

I don't see how that sentence means that funding is needed. Plenty of forums exist with community moderation. Whether the person doing the work is compensated in respect and social connections, or money, doesn't really make a difference to me.

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#33
post #6

I look around at every. single. internet community on the planet and I struggle to find a single one that isn't full of assholes. Including the very space I am on right now. And yet - when I step outside and go talk to people and hang out with my friends they suddenly recede into the shadows. Sure, here and there somebody will be an asshole but for the most part everyone is nice, helpful, and (especially in my friend…

I definitely do not think HN is full of assholes.

We can chalk that up to dang.

HN: one of the last remaining Great Good Places of the Internet, a lone tavern in an iconic gateway town to the now not-so-wild west.

Beyond the western borders of this little town, the tech gold rush has both expanded to epic proportions, affecting all the economies in the world, and also gone through enough booms and busts that the phrase "gold rush" seems somehow off.

As more and more young'uns join and jaded veterans return to throng the tavern alike, it often seems to be on the brink of either exploding with the largest gun fight in history, or jumping the shark.

And yet, against all odds, it retains its original magnetism - drawing throngs that grow in number and diversity while seers like [https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=patio11](https://news.y... and [https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=tptacek](https://new... continue to return - dispensing worldly wisdom worth its weight in gold from corner tables.

The secret is the man at the corner of the bar @dang, always around with a friendly smile and a towel on his shoulder. The only sheriff in the west who still doubles as the friendly bartender: always polite, always willing to break up a fight with kind words and clean up messes himself.

Yes a cold-hard look from him is all it takes to get most outlaws to back down, yes, his Colt-45 "moderator" edition is feared by all men, but the real secret to his success: his earnest passion (some call it an obsession) for the seemingly sisyphean task of sustaining good conflict - letting it simmer but keeping it all times below the boiling point based on "the code":

"Conflict is essential to human life, whether between different aspects of oneself, between oneself and the environment, between different individuals or between different groups. It follows that the aim of healthy living is not the direct elimination of conflict, which is possible only by forcible suppression of one or other of its antagonistic components, but the toleration of it—the capacity to bear the tensions of doubt and of unsatisfied need and the willingness to hold judgement in suspense until finer and finer solutions can be discovered which integrate more and more the claims of both sides. It is the psychologist's job to make possible the acceptance of such an idea so that the richness of the varieties of experience, whether within the unit of the single personality or in the wider unit of the group, can come to expression."

May the last great tavern in the West and it's friendly bartender-sheriff live long and prosper.

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#34
Moderators who treat their forums as a privilege to be a part of, and who enforce a bar reward their users with that value every day I think.

I've been a member of a variety of communities in my life, and to a single one what made them good was the sense of ownership and stewardship by a core member or senate of members. They were all minor personality cults around BDFLs. Whether it was bands, bars and restaurants, hackers, software projects, companies, sports teams, volunteer projects, or anything else, there was someone who could say, "this is my thing, the bar is here, be welcome or leave," and the main thing they did not tolerate was members usurping that authority with external criteria, criticism, or drama. The difference between an organic community and a "scene," I'd suspect is this ownership piece, where an organic community has a founder steward who is a hub or hierarch, whereas a scene is a kind of dynamic running opporunistic power struggle. While I thought there might be masculine and feminine aspects to that, I've known too many women who had that steward/hierarch role in different places to think it is an artifact of sex. I suspect you could replace most of the rules in the article with one rule, which is "respect the mods," and provided the moderators don't debase themselves or get trolled, that's pretty sustainable. The more rules you have, the more likely someone will leverage any possible inconsistency into creating chaos that puts them at the center of it.

I would be interested in others' thoughts about why irc/silc, usenet, fidonet, early reddit, and even early twitter worked. Did they implement this articles recommendations, and which ones are sufficient or necessary? IRC was pretty anonymous for its time, especially with proxies and shells, and it persists today. IRC helped scale communities pretty fast, but being an entertaining participant vs. running a show are very different skills and desires. In each case, the rule was "respect the mods," and so long as they stayed aloof, appreciated what they had created, and acted minimally and according to principle, their communities sustained and thrived. I don't know whether these additional rules are that necessary if the recipe for a thriving community is just really a good BDFL.

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely do not think HN is full of assholes.

We can chalk that up to dang. HN: one of the last remaining Great Good Places of the Internet, a lone tavern in an iconic gateway town to the now not-so-wild west. Beyond the western borders of this little town, the tech gold rush has both expanded to epic proportions, affecting all the economies in the world, and also gone through enough booms and busts that the phrase "gold rush" seems somehow off. As more and more…

This seems like an overly idyllic reading of this site. There's a lot of good things about this site but there are very silly cultural quirks, such as the ways people structure their posts/arguments, what people tend to value, and maybe more importantly that amidst the very high quality comments there are a lot of confidently false/incorrect ones that rise to the top (of course, that also means you shouldn't take this post as the truth either).

I appreciate that this community prioritizes logical reasoning, but often the "rationalist" mentality just turns into searching for ways to rationalize an existing viewpoint. It reminds me of Less Wrong, though at least here there's less of a cult-like worshipping of the "core literature" and its authors, so maybe that's the silver lining.

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#36
post #6

I look around at every. single. internet community on the planet and I struggle to find a single one that isn't full of assholes. Including the very space I am on right now. And yet - when I step outside and go talk to people and hang out with my friends they suddenly recede into the shadows. Sure, here and there somebody will be an asshole but for the most part everyone is nice, helpful, and (especially in my friend…

It's more easy than the article makes it out to be:

You delete everything you don't instantly agree with.

Don't get emotional about it, just sit there like a robot and delete everything. It's okay to be amused when people enrage to levels they themselves didn't think possible when you delete their comments then delete what she wrote again. No need to ban anyone.

Each comment should be valuable to read and provide further insight into the mission. What does bigfoot eat? What is the best time to spot nessie? When was Dr Fritz channeled for last time? When will bitcoin finally die? etc etc No space for detailed explanations why the very essence of the platform is nonsense.

Ideally written things served to other people are written by yourself but comments can be as good and sometimes even better. Nearly all of it doesn't make the cut. However polite the compliment to the author of the article, it is wasting other peoples time. It needs to be a homogeneous mass of remote viewers, color forth programmers or vic 20 evangelists aimed like lasers at a goal. Simply buying a Tucker Torpedo doesn't make you worth listening to.

If the author just like you thinks the rapture is happening, then we have a keeper!

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#37

Anil dash is one of those tech bros that just says shit to create content and it has no basis in experience or research, just a weak amalgamation of thoughts. This article vaguely describes moderating. Thanks for your wisdom, Anil.

That’s quite a substantive claim with little to no evidence that adds little to productive discussion.

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#38
post #6

I look around at every. single. internet community on the planet and I struggle to find a single one that isn't full of assholes. Including the very space I am on right now. And yet - when I step outside and go talk to people and hang out with my friends they suddenly recede into the shadows. Sure, here and there somebody will be an asshole but for the most part everyone is nice, helpful, and (especially in my friend…

Our friends and even acquaintances and people who live near us are a more selective group than we often think. I'm not sure it's the internet specifically. If you go to a school board meeting in a big city, or a Walmart or some place with lots of random people you will deal with some absolutely awful encounters in the real world as well.

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#39
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is "absence of monetization" a value? Do we expect this with any other business other than the ones on the internet - news papers, magazines, local community events etc. Absence of monetization, to me means its a hobby project funded by you and not a business, that also perhaps means it has not kept up with the competition - think servers, performance, websites, mobile apps etc. Maybe avoiding ad based monetization c…

>Is "absence of monetization" a value? If capitalism is a value, then anti-capitalism is also a value. A lot of people believe the presence of capitalism on the web is fundamentally antithetical to what they see as its fundamentally anarchist/anti-establishment ethos. Besides, the cost per month of running a small forum nowadays is less than what many people here spend on a single lunch. Not everyone is running a bus…

>anti-capitalism is also a value

Say it with me: communism.

Re: If your website's full of assholes, it's your fault (2011)

#40
post #24
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You didn't have the level of de facto censorship that you see now with the massive centralized communication platforms. I disagree. Not every forum was SA or 4chan, plenty were aggressively moderated. The primary difference between then and now that I see is that, back then, moderation wasn't always considered censorship.

I'm talking about the upper level of modern content moderation, imposed by the platforms themselves. It's the autonomy that is missing nowadays.

>primary difference between then and now

is that there is little choice and even less variation

Post reply on HN