Live data from Hacker News

College has been oversold

marginalrevolution.com

11–20 of 254 posts

Re: College has been oversold

#11
Well, I was one of the 90K people who graduated with performing a performing arts (classical guitar performance) degree in 2008. The culture when you get through with an undergrad performing artist degree is not, "go out into the world and work!" it's more along the lines of, "go back to school and get more degrees in an attempt to stay in school longer by working in academia." I know this because I fell into it. A masters of music degree and a year of doctoral school later, I quit. While I don't regret my time in school, I certainly don't use any of the specific skills learned there.

There's this entire culture among artists where staying in a school environment is the ultimate goal. Artists are entirely capable of driving economic growth and doing really well for themselves, but the skills they get in school are more related to staying in school than making a living outside of it. That's really where the arts are oversold: "Come to my school and you'll be good enough afterward to make a living doing exactly what you love!" The reality is a lot more harsh, a fact never shared with students.

Re: College has been oversold

#12
I agree that it's been oversold. I met many people in school who couldn't compare and contrast essays that were in direct opposition to one another. They shouldn't have been in school to begin with. I'm not sure I agree about the science part though. Isn't the pay for scientists rather low for the most part? Seems like my scientist friends are always poor.

Seems like we could use more engineers though.

Re: College has been oversold

#13
post #6

This is a consequence of the concerted effort by educators to increase post-secondary enrollment in the United States. Presumably, the students likely to enroll in a math or science program were (by and large) already heading to college 25 years ago. As a metric for high schools, students enrolling in and graduating from a 4-year college is one of the most important numbers in the all-important school ranking. Studen…

Let me get this straight - you're arguing that increased college enrollment over the past 25 years is some sort of conspiracy perpetrated by secondary school administrators to better their own rankings?

Re: College has been oversold

#14
post #5

The scariest part is that all the people I know who have no confidence in their intelligence ("Oh, I could never major in THAT, I'd have to take Calculus! I hate math!") avoid the science majors and are majoring in education. I think that being a teacher should require a 7-8 year graduate education track similar to a doctor or lawyer, not a quick 4-year liberal arts degree that most people shoot for so that they only…

Then we'd definitely have enough quality teachers at the rate the jobs pay. And they'd have no student loan debt either.

Re: College has been oversold

#15

Well, I was one of the 90K people who graduated with performing a performing arts (classical guitar performance) degree in 2008. The culture when you get through with an undergrad performing artist degree is not, "go out into the world and work!" it's more along the lines of, "go back to school and get more degrees in an attempt to stay in school longer by working in academia." I know this because I fell into it. A m…

What economic factors do you think have created this environment for art? In order to win you have to have 10k people buying your stuff?

Re: College has been oversold

#16

A liberal arts education is just as worth it today as it was 300 years ago. The current problem is that the cost of a liberal arts degree has spiraled out of control. There's no reason why an English or Philosophy degree needs to cost $15k a year. Making everyone an engineer or scientist isn't the answer.

Second that.

When a 20-something is strapped with a 50-100K+ debt, the perceived risk involved in doing something they did not exactly go to school for is usually too much to handle.

Re: College has been oversold

#17
post #6

This is a consequence of the concerted effort by educators to increase post-secondary enrollment in the United States. Presumably, the students likely to enroll in a math or science program were (by and large) already heading to college 25 years ago. As a metric for high schools, students enrolling in and graduating from a 4-year college is one of the most important numbers in the all-important school ranking. Studen…

Let me get this straight - you're arguing that increased college enrollment over the past 25 years is some sort of conspiracy perpetrated by secondary school administrators to better their own rankings?

I think GP is arguing that the incentives are such that no conspiracy is needed.

Re: College has been oversold

#18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making everyone get through 2 semesters of calculus and a real probability class would help both their well roundedness and employee-ability. The lack of numeracy and scientific background among otherwise well educated people is shameful.

As is the lack of critical thinking, problem solving and communication skills from the other side. EDIT: In response to some of the questions below, please let me clarify. When I said "other side" I was meaning a lack of well-roundedness. I was NOT trying to pit STEM grads against liberal arts grads. I do not intend to state that STEM graduates don't know problem solving or critical thinking. Far from it. However in…

I am willing to posit that a lack of statistical knowledge does more harm to critical thinking than a lack of rhetorical knowledge.

Re: College has been oversold

#19
lets not forget that all this increased enrollment increases the price of education and puts a strain on resources for all of us. Not only were there slightly less comp sci graduates but they grossly overpaid for their education compared to graduates in 1985.

One of the biggest bummers about that chart is the increase in debt it represents.

Re: College has been oversold

#20
Is it actually "non-science in particular"? From what I can tell from job/income statistics (depending on how you interpret them), the college degree is actually most valuable for people who intend to pursue non-STEM careers. The unemployment rates are much lower, and average salaries much higher, if you compare degree-holders to non-degree-holders among people pursuing non-STEM careers.

Meanwhile, in computer science (to take my field), the degree has some economic value, but I don't think nearly as much--- you can get a high-paying tech job just by having a good github "resume". There's no real way to do the equivalent in, say, history. You can write a bunch of freelance historical newsletters, but HR screens want to see a degree in something, anything; doesn't matter what, but must be a degree.

Post reply on HN