Live data from Hacker News

Copilot sells code other people wrote

twitter.com

741–750 of 838 posts

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the whole point. Without the data, it would be worthless. Microsoft is not paying the full cost because it is ripping the data without asking consent. I'm not saying what they are doing is illegal per se, but it's definitely immoral.

But why is it immoral? All that code is still out there, if I had the time and the resources I could build a language model. Unlike commons in the real world (e.g. land, fresh water, etc) a code commons is purely additive. With the release of Copilot (which I don't intend to pay for or use) nothing has been destroyed, instead we'll get more code for less work where companies do pay for their developers to use it, som…

You can say the exact same about piracy, when I take a game or a pdf book from a pirate site, nothing is destroyed, nothing is subtracted. The server still owns the data and can copy and share it infinitely, all that changed is that I now have a copy too, and I use it to enrich my own intellectual life.

The argument has 2 main flaws

1- It's not symmetric. The massive corporations with paid armies of lawyers aren't hugging trees and talking about how "Knowledge is - like - just free, man" with dreamy eyes, I would love if they were like that but no. They are constantly on the lookout for anyone remotely using their work. They don't deserve the language of free knowledge and open data, that would be like extending peace to an invading army, or defending a tyrant with the lingo of free speech. He Who Lives By The Sword Dies By The Sword.

2- If the person(s) behind the data or the code lives off their intellectual labor, you are ripping them off by using it without compensation. Sometimes the compensation is as little as simply citing them, just mention their names so that they get visibility and prestige they deserve for toiling in the intellectual field to produce the ideas and brain patterns you use and benefit from.

The whole thing is a huge mine field, digital reproduction of information and abstract structures is an extremely novel phenomenon that breaks tons of human intutions about how ideas and thinking work and spreads. But the involvement of a corporation allows you to shortcut the entire thing by invoking (1), also known as the fundamental theorem of ethics : Do Unto Others As You Wish They Do Unto You. Do corporations allow you to freely take and mix their intellectual produce and sell it back into them ? No ? then they DON'T get to do that either, except maybe among themselves.

What I find strange is how nobody talks about how inherently repulsive and ugly the "Copilot" philosophy is, how it is fundamentally a dead end and how much it betrays a lack of understanding of how programming works on part of those who fund and market it. Code is different from natural language, the fact that we call the symbols we write algorithms in "Programming Languages" is purely a historical incident. Code doesn't have the redundant resilience and error-correcting properties of natural language, removing or modifiying or adding even a tiny bit to correct code can give you atrociously-slow correct code, or full-of-security-holes correct code, or non-correct code, or any of the 3 mixed together with other disasters. If you're going to steal people's open source code, at least do somthing interesting and intelligent with it, don't be a lazy fuck and apply an NLP technique to a highly formal and rigid domain then smile smugly and charge people for it as if this going to end anywhere useful.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CoPilot is a black box at the moment. Microsoft claims they used the public corpus on GitHub. There are plenty of GPL, AGPL, and "source available" projects in the public corpus. So what exactly is the licensing? The argument may make sense if they limited themselves to public-domain (CC0) works, but that is not what happened here. If CoPilot attributed something to an AGPL project, does it mean the "virality" applie…

There's also a good amount of commercial and leaked source code on GitHub, including MS's own leaked Windows XP source. I haven't played around with Copilot yet, but if I ever do I plan on copy/pasting some win32 API definitions to see if I can get it to spit out any of the leaked source.

> if I ever do I plan on copy/pasting some win32 API definitions to see if I can get it to spit out any of the leaked source.

If that works, then I can't wait for that to be a boon for Wine and ReactOS: "Microsoft itself provided this code and allowed us to use it, so therefore it's totally legal. Neener neener."

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#743

I find this whole topic very annoying, this is like the 3rd variation to reach the front page today. But it has made me realize why I instinctively dislike Free Software as a movement. Copyright and licensing are bad, actually. Stop getting worked up about the idea of using courts to punish theft. Stop getting into a frenzy of arousal about the police kicking down doors to drag Billy Gates to jail because 80 characte…

I think because this kind of ML is so new, we have no choice but to frame arguments for/against in terms of the structures that have been in place for decades past (copyright, open source licenses). We don't yet have the legal language to express dissent against ML in clear yes or no terms. I think if there were an option to add a machine learning clause and ask individual creators if they wanted it applied in that c…

because big companies want this, we absolutely will accept that company can get copyright from AI

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that substantial shouldn't be measured in lines of code, it should be measured in importance. Something like the fast inverse square root is substantial even though it's short.

The fast inverse square makes for a poor example when it comes to notions of intellectual property and copyright because there is prior art. The Wikipedia page has a history. And imagine if Microsoft had been able to copyright the fast inverse square function before Carmack sat down to write Quake!

Prior art matters for patents, not copyrights. Carmack's code is still protected by copyright even if he didn't invent the algorithm.

And copyright doesn't prevent someone else from implementing the same algorithm, only from copying the code. If Microsoft had been able to copyright the fast inverse square root function, Carmack could still have written his own version and even copyrighted that version himself.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#745
post #535

This might be overreacting but is there a way to opt-out of Copilot using your code in open source repos? It feels morally wrong to me that I can spend thousands of hours working on projects on my own free will but then a company can sell the code I wrote to others in the form of snippet completion as a service. In fact they end up selling your code back to yourself if you plan to use the service. If the answer is no…

This is a really good point that I hadn't considered before. It's facebook all over again — selling your own content back to you. Repo owners should be at least compensated when their code gets used. That would be an incredible market.

> That would be an incredible market

I for one welcome our new CEO (Copilot Engine Optimization) overlords.

Jokes aside that will likely cause GitHub to be filled with lots of low quality repos (even AI generated, oh the irony!), to trick Copilot into using their code.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they had a reasonable basis for believing they had a license they're in the clear. "I didn't know" might not be enough but "I had good reasons to think otherwise" is.

> If they had a reasonable basis for believing they had a license they're in the clear. False. If they committed copyright infringement, even if they genuinely believed they weren't, they are not in the clear. They still owe damages.

Can I have a citation?

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#747
post #535

This might be overreacting but is there a way to opt-out of Copilot using your code in open source repos? It feels morally wrong to me that I can spend thousands of hours working on projects on my own free will but then a company can sell the code I wrote to others in the form of snippet completion as a service. In fact they end up selling your code back to yourself if you plan to use the service. If the answer is no…

This is a really good point that I hadn't considered before. It's facebook all over again — selling your own content back to you. Repo owners should be at least compensated when their code gets used. That would be an incredible market.

I don't think that would be possible. One of the big limitations of neural networks is that they don't cite their sources.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong with someone making a little dough. It is just numbers in database.

Yeah, but those numbers translate to food on the table for my kids, a roof over their heads, better education, etc. Come on, this is a tired response. Nothing is wrong with people making money. There is a lot wrong with people making money off of the hard work of others without any consideration or remuneration.

No post body was provided.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really good point that I hadn't considered before. It's facebook all over again — selling your own content back to you. Repo owners should be at least compensated when their code gets used. That would be an incredible market.

I don't think that would be possible. One of the big limitations of neural networks is that they don't cite their sources.

Calculate a rough semantic similarity score across all your snippets, and pay out a fractional reward to all originating codebases.

I think the bigger problem is that it will almost certainly lead to a proliferation of giant snippet spam repositories.

Post reply on HN