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Copilot sells code other people wrote

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Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#121
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's best if we sidestep these big conceptual questions about what cognition or creativity really are. It's hard to find agreement, and perhaps it is not necessary to do so. My position is that if a person hired in a company can currently use Google, Stack Overflow and GitHub to help develop their custom scripts, and no moral or copyright issues are infringed (ie, you don't try to say you came up with it on y…

You are saying that the AI should be treated the same way as a person would regarding its 'output'. I disagree. This is a conceptual disagreement and you cannot just sweep under the rug "what cognition or creativity really are". At the end, when in several (2-5) years we start seeing structural unemployment emerging because of AI deployments, this will be resolved by the legal system, most likely by some sort of part…

I think I still have not understood your argument. Are you saying that you are afraid that AIs will become too powerful and cause unemployment, and therefore we should regulate them now before they do so?

Many people are worried about this, which is why there is a lot of debate about minimum income programs. However, at present, what Copilot is doing is similar to what Google does, and it is certainly not going to replace devs any time soon. Personally, I think we should exploit technology to its fullest, and the only reason we can have this conversation is because in the past, we haven't given too much consideration about the mailmen, secretaries, delivery workers and everyone else who got displaced by our use of the internet and similar technologies. We merely adapted to better exploit them.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#122
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or are 'influence' and 'theft' the same now? They have been the same for most of history. People could openly copy titles, plots, parts, phrases, etc from prior work. Same for mechanical designs. The only thing preventing them was obscurity (e.g. the inventor trying to make it hidden) not any law or ethical idea that it's bad (there wasn't any). That's how things from math to gears to tunes got better (or changed o…

Except that AI will not lead to "golden ages of art production" because nobody gives a sh*t about art created by AIs. And nobody will.

>because nobody gives a sht about art created by AIs. And nobody will.*

You'd be surprised. Especially if people don't care/are told/whether it's "created by AI or not".

Whether in "high art" or lowly pop, "generative music" (and fine art) has long been a thing. And people do attach to it (e.g. to Brian Eno's generative works made by rule based systems he programs).

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#123
This isn't how a language model works.

It's SO frustrating that even on HN people still fall for this naive and incorrect analysis. Pasting bits I've said before on this topic:

Language models do not work like this. They can copy content but usually that's for something like the GPL language text.

Generally they work on a character by character basis predicting what is the most likely character to appear next.

This very rarely results in copying text, and almost never rare text.

Mechanically it has learnt both syntax of language and how concepts relate. So when it starts generating it makes sentence that are syntactically valid but also make sense in terms of concepts.

That's really different to just combining bits of sentences, and it gives rise to abilities you wouldn't expect in something just cutting and pasting bits of sentences. For example, few shot learning is mostly driven by its conceptual understanding and can't be done by something with no way to relate concepts.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#124
post #112
post #50

Pretty soon the world is going to come to realize art/creation is just blending, incrementing and repurposing prior art. No book, painting, codebase, sonnet, design is theft-less. The art is the space reduction, otherwise we’d just bruteforce away.

Unless every invention is gonna be AI generated (which is kind of a scary situation), intellectual property still needs to be a thing (otherwise people won't have incentive to invent, it'll just be stolen from them).

People have an innate desire to invent and create. This is why so many people do it for zero extrinsic reward. Hell, this is the case for almost every musician. They are fed a pittance in streaming, only a bit more than most OSS developers get.

This intrinsic motivation is more normally "farmed" by investors who capitalize and capture the IP value for themselves. This actually has a detrimental effect on innovation.

Doing away with or watering down intellectual property protections will just take big meaty chunks out of the stock market and partly equalize wealth distribution.

It'll probably spur innovation too - historically it usually has, but preserving the existing social order takes precedence over that which is why a lot is invested in persisting the myth that it aids rather than hinders innovation.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#125
post #120
post #86

> Hector Martin: If you use Copilot, you are basically playing Russian Roulette that the random mashup of existing, copyrighted, hegerogenously licensed code that you get out of it qualifies as an original work, mostly by chance. Or that nobody will ever sue you otherwise. Well, that's already the case with Stack Overflow copypasta enterprise code. If anything, use of Copilot would be an improvement...

That quote applies to any creative work. Be it code, audio or video.

He talks about code, and Copilot works with code, so I'm not sure how it "applies to any".

If you mean that if you make a "random mashup of existing, copyrighted, hegerogenously licensed" works of art (audio/video), it also applies that you might be sued for it, then yes.

But that's not much of an issue with Copilot if you're using it for enteprise code that's already a mashup of copypaste "existing, copyrighted, hegerogenously licensed" and that you wont release and nobody will see anyway.

Whereas audio/video you generally want to release.

If you make them for your own consumption, then it's my response that rather applies: since nobody will see it, and you don't release/sell/circulate it, you can go ahead and mix Michael Jackson, Disney and Star Wars material - nothing will happen to you.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#126

1. You most likely agreed to that by using GitHub. 2. Copy&Pasting Code by manual search exists. 3. This is just a smart tool so you don't have to figure out yourself what to copy&paste (in the best case) and save a lot of time. Sometimes I truly wonder how people can genuinely be upset about things like this. What is broken are copyright and patent laws in the 21st century.

As to your first point, there are many repositories on github that the author of code did not upload there or where not all contributors to the code are on github or agreed to let their work be used in such a case.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#127
post #50

Pretty soon the world is going to come to realize art/creation is just blending, incrementing and repurposing prior art. No book, painting, codebase, sonnet, design is theft-less. The art is the space reduction, otherwise we’d just bruteforce away.

I'm not sure what do you mean by "theft-less" but I believe you might be conflating inspiration with derivative work: Copilot can produce verbatim copies of open-source code, this would make it more similar to how some musicians sample other people's music to create new music.

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#128
post #41

I don't understand what's going on there. I don't use github. Can someone explain what the author means? Edit: in detail

GitHub Copilot is a paid feature, but that's a red herring in this discussion - people are free to monetize free software, neither or the major licenses forbid this.

GitGub Copilot is an advanced autocomplete / code generation system, based on a machine learning model. The code used for training the model is taken from projects hosted on GitHub. These projects were published under different licenses.

The main questions are:

Some of the licenses need something from you if you create a derivative work. Does the Copilot training itself count as creating a derivative work?

Sometimes the autocomplete basically quotes the original code. Does the original license then apply to the autocompleted / generated code too? How much of verbatim code quoting does it need for the result to be considered a derivative work?

Re: Copilot sells code other people wrote

#129
post #98
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This idea has been around for a while - why... "pretty soon"? And I'm sure I couldn't disagree with you more. Or are 'influence' and 'theft' the same now?

> Or are 'influence' and 'theft' the same now? They have been the same for most of history. People could openly copy titles, plots, parts, phrases, etc from prior work. Same for mechanical designs. The only thing preventing them was obscurity (e.g. the inventor trying to make it hidden) not any law or ethical idea that it's bad (there wasn't any). That's how things from math to gears to tunes got better (or changed o…

Not sure why I'm being downvoted here - I agree that this idea has been the same for most of history.

Your example of folk music is an odd one, for exactly that reason - it largely repurposes existing art. For example, Wagner wrote extensively about why we shouldn't respect folk music for this reason. I mostly disagree with him, but his comparison at least illuminates that this isn't so black and white. And that's really just scratching the surface of a complex topic.

I sense that if someone came along 2400 years ago with the exact play that Sophocles had just produced and claimed they had just composed it themselves, immediately after a public performance, someone would claim that theft had occurred. Do you disagree?

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