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10mbps over 1km on a single pair of wires

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Re: 10mbps over 1km on a single pair of wires

#181
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still a fan for cost reasons of FTTN, because I think with Coax in the last mile, you can deliver fantastic performance, so long as you're not also trying to delivery video too. Furthermore if you actually run Coax in duct for buried circuits, its easy to replace with fiber later.

Our telco converted all its infra to FTTN via fiber. So, I've actually have fiber connection up to the front of my building, then it's terminated and distributed via VDSL to the street. I have a 50/8 mbps connection at home and, it gives all the performance it can give. The telco keeps the speeds a bit higher to handle VDSL overhead, so we have a real 50/8 mbps IP connection at premises. I'd rather not rewire my home…

This sounds like post-hoc rationalization.

I have Sonic fiber in SF. 1Gbps symmetric, over a "fragile fiber" run directly into my home. It works quite well. The drop cable is pre-made in standard lengths with weatherproof connectors. The glass is embedded in a large-ish diameter substrate that resists sharp bends naturally so the installers don't need to take special care to prevent losses, just don't try to force the cable to bend beyond what it wants to do (very different from your standard fiber patch cables in a switch room). It is robust enough you could cable staple it to a wall without issue. Terminates in a tiny ONT that gives me Ethernet on my side.

They're deploying 10Gbps for all new installs and I'm eagerly awaiting my upgrade. No change to the fiber itself are required, just swapping equipment on both ends. This same fiber can do 100Gbps in the future if the need arises, possibly more. No coax plant can come close. The fact that an independent ISP can do this for $40/month and make money at it proves the economics.

There is no reason not to run fiber unless you're more focused on rent extraction than investing in your business... at least in suburbs and cities. (See ATT's public comments and focus on milking wireless while dis-investing in physical plant as an example of goosing profits because they don't face real competition in most of their service area).

Re: 10mbps over 1km on a single pair of wires

#182
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fiber is much cheaper because it's so much more common. For example: I/O fiber is about 0.10 cents a foot or less for 2 fiber cable. (12 fiber is only 20 cents a foot). OSP gel-filled direct burial is 0.55 cents a foot or less for 2 fiber cable. (12 fiber is only 65 cents). This is micro-armored OSP cable, resistant to chewing/damage as well. Basic 18 awg single pair shielded direct burial wire is about 0.80 cent…

When everyone prices fiber, they fail to include the termination costs. How much are the termination costs on that fiber, per run? Also, you'd never install single pair direct burial, and almost never shielded (unless its audio and not phone type) - it'd be 4/6/12 pair direct bury gel-filled cable.

Besides what DannyBee says about termination being a lot cheaper and easier when you can tolerate small losses (which is most people):

Big infrastructure often orders the cables pre-terminated, eg an ISP will order their arial cable with built-in termination at certain intervals. No muss, no fuss.

You're right about single pair though. If you're putting in two strands might as well do 6. If you need 6 might as well do 24. Never hurts to have spares and extra capacity. Especially if it involves stringing poles or digging holes.

Re: 10mbps over 1km on a single pair of wires

#183
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Al Gore never claimed that, btw, but he did recognize its importance and provided political support, even Vint Cerf said so: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/internet-of-lies/

>Al Gore never claimed that, btw, GORE: “During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country’s economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system.” There are three ways to read the first sentence, two of which take the presu…

Gore absolutely deserves to be dinged for speaking ambiguously in a way that leans towards greatly inflating his contribution to the field.

But at the same time, anyone who's ever read or written a résumé will readily recognize "took the initiative in creating" as CV-speak for "I assisted in some capacity, however minor." I expect the actual number of people misled by Gore's self-puffery to have been small to nonexistent.

Re: 10mbps over 1km on a single pair of wires

#184
post #84

All these things are related. Back in the 1990s I worked with others to develop DSL technologies (ADSL, HDSL, VDSL) for telcos. Why not fiber, some ask? oh, fiber materials may be sand, but installed fiber is sand, energy, and labor. Installation costs trump everything - use what you have for the physical medium. While we (PairGain) also made point-to-point private links, it was clear then, and even moreso now that m…

Al Gore never claimed that, btw, but he did recognize its importance and provided political support, even Vint Cerf said so: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/internet-of-lies/

My ex's step father always said, "Well, if Al Gore invented the internet, I paid for it."

Which, as the senior official at DARPA who authorized funding for the project, he kinda did. ;)

Re: 10mbps over 1km on a single pair of wires

#185
Not sure how I'd feel about have 1km ethernet links without monitoring-- in particular, being able to catch pre-fail stats getting worse when it's wet out and being able to TDR the interface remotely so when it fails I've got some idea if it was cut near one end or the other before I go out to fix it.

Re: 10mbps over 1km on a single pair of wires

#186
Considering MoCA ethernet to coax will do >1Gbps over 1km distances for the same price, I'm failing to see the use case unless you absolutely have to reuse an existing wire pair. Ultra lower power applications maybe?

https://www.newegg.com/p/1B4-03D1-00051?item=9SIAU2EH777285

https://www.amazon.com/MOTOROLA-Adapter-Ethernet-Bonded-MM10...

https://www.newegg.com/p/1FR-00BD-00001?item=9SIA1CZEDM0099

Re: 10mbps over 1km on a single pair of wires

#187
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When everyone prices fiber, they fail to include the termination costs. How much are the termination costs on that fiber, per run? Also, you'd never install single pair direct burial, and almost never shielded (unless its audio and not phone type) - it'd be 4/6/12 pair direct bury gel-filled cable.

Termination is basically a non-cost anymore. The price a pack of 10 sc/apc field terminations (IE that a random DIY'ers could do) is The loss and ease of mechanical connectors has gotten good enough (0.15 db or better) that most of the folks i know will only fusion splice when they really have to. I agree it wouldn't make sense to do single pair or single fiber, but that's the actually the comparison at which 10baset…

This product is a special service product for private line service within a facility, likely over existing cable.

There are reasons why copper and coax exists though, which is what I was pointing out.

Re: 10mbps over 1km on a single pair of wires

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our telco converted all its infra to FTTN via fiber. So, I've actually have fiber connection up to the front of my building, then it's terminated and distributed via VDSL to the street. I have a 50/8 mbps connection at home and, it gives all the performance it can give. The telco keeps the speeds a bit higher to handle VDSL overhead, so we have a real 50/8 mbps IP connection at premises. I'd rather not rewire my home…

This sounds like post-hoc rationalization. I have Sonic fiber in SF. 1Gbps symmetric, over a "fragile fiber" run directly into my home. It works quite well. The drop cable is pre-made in standard lengths with weatherproof connectors. The glass is embedded in a large-ish diameter substrate that resists sharp bends naturally so the installers don't need to take special care to prevent losses, just don't try to force th…

Does Sonic own their own fiber network?

Re: 10mbps over 1km on a single pair of wires

#189
post #84

All these things are related. Back in the 1990s I worked with others to develop DSL technologies (ADSL, HDSL, VDSL) for telcos. Why not fiber, some ask? oh, fiber materials may be sand, but installed fiber is sand, energy, and labor. Installation costs trump everything - use what you have for the physical medium. While we (PairGain) also made point-to-point private links, it was clear then, and even moreso now that m…

This is nice, but how long is it going to take until we get multi-drop over single pair back?

You know ... a technology that we could do back in 1986?

It seems like 10baseT1-S is never going to actually come out.

Re: 10mbps over 1km on a single pair of wires

#190
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomePlug

http://www.helicopting.de

https://bitlair.nl/Projects/Ethernet_over_phone_cable

https://forum.openrov.com/t/teardown-of-a-homeplug-adapter/3...

https://rovmaker.org/product/tether-interface-board/

etc, HomePlug has been widely adopted in the ROV building community

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