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Racism in Tech

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Re: Racism in Tech

#131

Post by rtperson »

freemarketteddy wrote: post #128
ww wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The racism that I've come in contact with (in corporate settings at least) is towards people from India. Not people born here and of Indian descent, but people from India with Indian culture. It would probably be better to call it "culturism" or bias against a culture instead of racism. When you go on a contract and you see 20 employees 50-80% of them being from India and 0% of them in management or even team lead po…

Well I think you're right...but this "culturism" that you talk about has something to do with the fact that Indians from India are not inherently very good at managing people or software projects.In fact I would say that statistically Indians who have been educated in India are not good managers period. I am myself an Indian and I have a bachelors degree from an Indian University. In my experience working for corpora…

There's a term for these tendencies: the Power Distance Index. (http://www.lessonsoffailure.com/developers/real-reason-outso...) The idea behind PDI is that leaders in some cultures expect, and even to an extent welcome, subordinates who question them. And there are other cultures where leaders expect obedience above all, regardless of any objective measure of correctness.

India is a high-PDI country. If you're taking orders from an Indian manager, for the most part they will expect you to keep your head down, shut up, tow the line, and do what you're told. This also partially explains Westerners' complaints about Indian subordinates: that they don't speak up, don't take responsibility, don't innovate. They have been very thoroughly taught not to. On the other hand, this also explains the at times amazing attention to detail -- if details are all you are allowed to control, you will control the living crap out of them.

Re: Racism in Tech

#132

Post by ericd »

zootar wrote: post #22
ericd wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's probably an evolutionary origin - genes that compel their owners to look out for others with the same genes over those who are unlikely to share genes were likely to be more successful overall in our more violent past. Now selection favors those who are able to work well with others of all races, so perhaps it's fading.

Why do you think selection favors "those who are able to work well with others of all races"?

Because being a racist nowadays tends to cause one to be marginalized by others, and not be as successful. Today's business environment favors the person who can work well with anyone.

Re: Racism in Tech

#133

Post by recursive »

rtperson wrote: post #131
freemarketteddy wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I think you're right...but this "culturism" that you talk about has something to do with the fact that Indians from India are not inherently very good at managing people or software projects.In fact I would say that statistically Indians who have been educated in India are not good managers period. I am myself an Indian and I have a bachelors degree from an Indian University. In my experience working for corpora…

There's a term for these tendencies: the Power Distance Index. ( http://www.lessonsoffailure.com/developers/real-reason-outso... ) The idea behind PDI is that leaders in some cultures expect, and even to an extent welcome, subordinates who question them. And there are other cultures where leaders expect obedience above all, regardless of any objective measure of correctness. India is a high-PDI country. If you're tak…

Very interesting.

(PS: "toe the line" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toe_the_line )

Re: Racism in Tech

#134

Post by davidw »

Spyro7 wrote: post #116
DanBC wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think racism is about as far from a relevant issue as you can get. Honestly, the people who get bent out of shape about it are just as backwards as the few people who are still actually racist. Haven't you just killed your company with this comment? Good Luck with any job interviews your company gives in the future. You appear to have left them open to claims of racist discrimination.

At the risk of losing karma, I have to say that I think this entire thread has really gone way too far. Guys, this is HACKER NEWS. I thought we were supposed to hold ourselves to a higher standard of conversation over here? Could I just post one thing? http://www.paulgraham.com/randomness.html If you disagree with what someone writes, then you should reply simply and without embellishment. To conclude that someone ha…

I generally believe very much in giving people the benefit of the doubt, and in not overreacting, and so on. The world benefits greatly from not taking offense at the drop of a hat.

However, there are times when one's blood boils for a reason. I reread this a few hours after my initial comments and... yep, I'm still angered when I read that those who call out someone for being racist are "backwards" and the equivalent of racists.

If someone wants to argue that racism isn't that big a deal these days... fine, whatever, that's debatable, and people deserve to be able to air their opinion without being shouted at. However, to stand up and say that those who denounce racism should shut up is despicable.

Re: Racism in Tech

#135

Post by davidw »

k33n wrote: post #34
gizmo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So his opinion should be dismissed 'cuz he's white? It's a topic where white people aren't allowed to talk about, except if we wish to talk in politically correct platitudes? I agree with you that racism is still a real problem and that k33n's comment seems somewhat out of touch. However, what you say is tantamount to "shut up because you're white", and that's not cool either. You actually went to the trouble of look…

Hey davidw, why don't you misrepresent what I said some more? I didn't say that the victims of racism were backwards. Anyone who is a victim of an actual crime should be treated with dignity and respect. People who get bent out of shape about a rude military contractor acting like an ignorant ass ARE backwards.

There are plenty of cases where racism doesn't end up being "an actual crime", because, rightly so, the standard of proof for "actual crimes" is fairly high. In other words, there are way more cases of racist behavior than actual "crimes" that can be pursued in a court of law.

> People who get bent out of shape about a rude military contractor acting like an ignorant ass ARE backwards.

People who don't stand up and say "not on my watch" in the face of injustice are part of the problem, and not part of the solution.

Re: Racism in Tech

#136

Post by JabavuAdams »

endtime wrote: post #129
JabavuAdams wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting point, but not really relevant to my argument. What's most interesting about these IDF anecdotes is that you have one ex-soldier completely dismissing behaviour that another ex-soldier admits to. That pattern can generalize to any org, regardless of volunteer / non-volunteer selection. I.e. they can't both be right. One of them is over-generalizing. EDIT> I.e. saying "No one in org X is doing Y" is much l…

The OP said "Org X has property P." You responded with "Org Y does not have property P, and Org Y is like Org X." I claim the second half of that - that things that are true about the IDF are likely to be true about the US military - cannot be assumed. Even ignoring the significant cultural differences between the two countries, there are differences in the demographics the militaries themselves are composed of.

So at the risk of pedantry ...

I was making a claim about large organizations that depend on loyalty, not even specifically military organizations.

So, the specific difference between military organizations and cultures are neatly excluded.

The pattern (of which I gave a specific example) is:

Person X in large org Y claims something is true for ALL members of org Y, based on X's personal experience.

I submit that humans being what they are and organizations being what they are, it's more likely that there are bad behaviours that are tolerated in sub-organizations of Y even if they violate the officially stated rules.

TL;DR Without perfect knowledge it's better to assume that something somewhere is going wrong than to assume that nothing anywhere is going wrong.

A lot of science, engineering and process control basically boils down to this. Why do we forget it when dealing with human systems?

Re: Racism in Tech

#137

Post by wallawe »

potatolicious wrote: post #119
product50 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have lived for 25 years in US. Never encountered racism ever - am from South Asian decent. That is saying something. Of course - there will be some people who will be racist. US, after all has 300M people and it defies probability that it will not have any racists. However, generalizing racists and saying racism exists based on these extreme edge case doesn't make logical sense.

Racism is an edge case? I've lived in Toronto, Vancouver, Seattle, and now SF - all diverse places by American standards. And I've experienced racism at every. single. one. Not of the pitchfork-and-lynching variety, but racism nonetheless. I want to live where you live, where racism is an extraordinary edge case.

Good luck finding anywhere in the entire world where racism doesn't exist. To say it doesn't is ignorant. It's ingrained in our evolutionary traits to have tendency to group and divide whether it be over race, culture, political or religious beliefs.

Some people don't have the intelligence however to rationally overcome the natural inclinations toward whatever bias we may subconsciously harbor. This has been true for the entirety for human civilization.

What I CAN tell you though, is that reverse discrimination by creating "black only" beauty pageants, television stations, and now incubators is not the solution to the problem and will only cause further division.

Re: Racism in Tech

#138

Post by DanBC »

Spyro7 wrote: post #116
DanBC wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think racism is about as far from a relevant issue as you can get. Honestly, the people who get bent out of shape about it are just as backwards as the few people who are still actually racist. Haven't you just killed your company with this comment? Good Luck with any job interviews your company gives in the future. You appear to have left them open to claims of racist discrimination.

At the risk of losing karma, I have to say that I think this entire thread has really gone way too far. Guys, this is HACKER NEWS. I thought we were supposed to hold ourselves to a higher standard of conversation over here? Could I just post one thing? http://www.paulgraham.com/randomness.html If you disagree with what someone writes, then you should reply simply and without embellishment. To conclude that someone ha…

The post said that people who get bent out of shape about racism are backwards.

Imagine the company not hiring a non-white interviewee, and that person doing thorough research.

That comment is findable in search engines.

k33n has left himself open to accusations of racism, and put his company at risk of lawsuits.

Re: Racism in Tech

#139

Post by endtime »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #136
endtime wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP said "Org X has property P." You responded with "Org Y does not have property P, and Org Y is like Org X." I claim the second half of that - that things that are true about the IDF are likely to be true about the US military - cannot be assumed. Even ignoring the significant cultural differences between the two countries, there are differences in the demographics the militaries themselves are composed of.

So at the risk of pedantry ... I was making a claim about large organizations that depend on loyalty, not even specifically military organizations. So, the specific difference between military organizations and cultures are neatly excluded. The pattern (of which I gave a specific example) is: Person X in large org Y claims something is true for ALL members of org Y, based on X's personal experience. I submit that hum…

Behavior/discipline will necessarily be noisier in a conscripted organization than in a self-selected volunteer organization. I don't think you can generalize that away.

Re: Racism in Tech

#140

Post by dlikhten »

joebadmo wrote: post #77
d3x wrote: post #6

This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer... I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp. I have launched 10+ projects for clients this year alone. I have 1 failed contract where I left because it just didn't work out. When I had success it was not because I was black and when I failed it was not because I was black. Both when I have succeeded and when I have failed was neve…

I have never encountered racism, therefore there is no racism. And anyone who thinks they're being discriminated against is a lazy whiner.

Boo @joebadmo!!!

I've seen it, some sexism actually. However those who are sexist/racist are easy to spot, they are just aholes in general. The one I knew was very easily spotted as every female member of the team complained about him in a month, followed by every male member just complaining how much of an ass he was.

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