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For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

aeon.co

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Re: For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

#81
post #22

This article seems to be saying that science and religion are trying to answer the same question, how did we get here. But I feel like that's misguided. I've always been under the impression that science is descriptive, it answers how? Whereas religion is deeper than that and aims to answer why? We can explain how natural processes work, but, and I believe this is a question Aristotle asked with the immovable mover,…

I think it's simpler. Religion and science answer different questions, because if they ever disagree on an answer, it instantly ceases to be a religious question. Never the other way around. This asymmetry is like the arrow of increasing entropy, always pointing towards science. Another asymmetry is that it's possible to hold scientific and religious beliefs at the same time (thanks to the above), but never two diffe…

> Another asymmetry is that it's possible to hold scientific and religious beliefs at the same time (thanks to the above), but never two different religions at the same time.

That's not true at all. Religious syncretism is a very old concept, and involves the blending of religions.

There are Catholic Buddhists, for example, and there have been those professing to follow that since around the 1600s. You'll also find many blends of traditional Incan beliefs and Catholicism, despite the surface-level incompatibilities, in South America.

One specific example might be Caodaism, which blends elements of Catholicism, Buddhism, and Taoism. Caodaism has about 2.5Mil followers in Vietnam. One of the core tenants of the religion is that we are now living in a period of time called the Third Amnesty, the end of which will be marked by the syncretism of _all_ religions into one.

Re: For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

#82
post #7

> such as the ‘New Atheists’ – to assert that the disproofs of God None of the atheists I know try to disprove all gods because they're generally collections of unfalsifiable claims. Specific gods as claimed to exist by specific groups, yes, but generally no. > [to assert that] the secular science that they claim to be doing are value-neutral, apolitical and objective How strange that science can't be neutral because…

> None of the atheists I know try to disprove all gods because they're generally collections of unfalsifiable claims. Specific gods as claimed to exist by specific groups, yes, but generally no.

"New Atheism" as a term, _requires_ it.

It isn't simply atheism, but rather a form that advocates for an intolerance of all religion. Whilst it doesn't require that you advocate for particular disproof against individual gods, as it may make use of all-encompassing arguments, it does requires that the concept of gods being disproved.

Re: For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

#84
post #22

This article seems to be saying that science and religion are trying to answer the same question, how did we get here. But I feel like that's misguided. I've always been under the impression that science is descriptive, it answers how? Whereas religion is deeper than that and aims to answer why? We can explain how natural processes work, but, and I believe this is a question Aristotle asked with the immovable mover,…

Religion doesn’t answer why we are here. Non-religious people think that’s what religion does.

Re: For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

#86
post #28
post #22

This article seems to be saying that science and religion are trying to answer the same question, how did we get here. But I feel like that's misguided. I've always been under the impression that science is descriptive, it answers how? Whereas religion is deeper than that and aims to answer why? We can explain how natural processes work, but, and I believe this is a question Aristotle asked with the immovable mover,…

Sort of. Academic theologians want to answer why. A religious person already knows, if you have to find data and infer things then it is philosophy not religion. Religion is based on information directed by the creator either directly to the believer or via trusted proxy. For example if you asked me why the universe exists I already know: because God willed it so. Most religious questions are a whether or not somethi…

First, in a very real sense, the modern physical sciences came from religion.

The great founders of science—Kepler, Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Descartes, etc.—were, without exception, trained in ecclesially sponsored schools and universities. It was under the aegis of the church that they took in their physics, their astronomy, and their mathematics. More specifically, they learned in those institutions two essentially theological truths necessary for the emergence of the experimental sciences—namely, that the universe is not God and that the universe, in every nook and cranny, is marked by intelligibility. If nature were divine—as indeed it is considered to be in many religions, philosophies, and mysticisms—then it could never be an apt subject for observation, analysis, and experimentation. And if nature were simply chaotic, void of form, it would never yield up the harmonies and patterned intelligibilities that scientists readily seek. When these two truths, which are both a function of the doctrine of creation, obtain, the sciences can get underway.

Second, when science and theology are properly understood, they are not in conflict, since they are not competing for primacy on the same playing field, like opposing football teams. Utilizing the scientific method, the physical sciences deal with events, objects, dynamics, and relationships within the empirically verifiable order. Theology, employing an entirely different method, deals with God and the things of God—and God is not an object in the world, not a reality circumscribed within the context of nature. As Thomas Aquinas put it, God is not ens summum (highest being), but rather ipsum esse (the act of being as such)—which is to say, God is not a being among beings, but instead the reason why there is an empirically observable universe at all. In this way, he is like the author of a richly complex novel. Charles Dickens never appears as a character in any of his sprawling narratives, yet he is the reason why any of those characters exist at all. Accordingly, the sciences, as such, can never adjudicate the question of God’s existence nor speak of his activity or attributes. Another type of rationality—not in competition with scientific rationality—is required for the determination of those matters.

And this brings me to my third point: scientism is not science. Sadly rampant today, scientism is the reduction of all knowledge to the scientific form of knowledge. The undeniable success of the physical sciences and the extraordinary usefulness of the technologies to which they have given rise have produced in the minds of many this conviction, but it represents a tragic impoverishment. A chemist might be able to tell us the chemical makeup of the paints that Michelangelo used on the Sistine Ceiling, but he couldn’t, qua scientist, tell us a thing about what makes that work of art so beautiful. A geologist might be able to tell us the stratification of the earth below the city of Chicago, but he could never, again qua scientist, tell us whether that city is being justly or unjustly governed. There isn’t a trace of the scientific method in Romeo and Juliet, but who would be so stupid as to assert that that play tells us nothing true about the nature of love. In a similar way, the great texts of the Bible and the theological tradition are not “scientific,” but they nevertheless speak the profoundest truths about God, creation, sin, redemption, grace, etc. Both the cause and effect of scientism, sadly, is the attenuation of the liberal arts in our institutions of higher education. Rather than appreciating literature, history, philosophy, and religion as conduits of objective truth, many today relegate these to the arena of subjective feeling or subject them to withering ideological criticism.

Re: For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

#88

I'm not sure about all religions, but a Christian's belief that nature proves God's existence is taught in the bible: "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" - Romans 1:…

Kind of off-topic but, why does the angloworld keep using a translation of the bible that's written in an almost "archaic" English (yes I know, I'm exaggerating, but I can't think of a better description from the top of my head). Coming from someone that was born and raised in a Portuguese speaking country, their version of the bible seems much more "accessible", But I acknowledge the fact that it might come at the c…

The KJV is the pinnacle of the English language.

Re: For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

#89
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just Positivism or Empiricism and there are huge problems with it as a method of epistemology. The link is discussing the First Cause argument and you, like others in this thread, are reducing metaphysical arguments to “others believe differently from me only because they want their belief to be true”. As for the sufficient evidence, regardless of the personal perspective in the parent comment, you should kno…

If it were only that clear-cut. "What we all have universal access to" is (so far) ineffable, which makes it open to lots of individual interpretations. The result is a great deal of what H. L. Mencken called "a great deal of theological blather and turmoil" because there's no way of telling truth from falsehood.

Here’s the thing: the religious believe that everyone on Earth, in that they experience reality alone, have sufficient evidence that reality has a creator. That elements of reality may be indescribable or that individuals experience reality in a subjective way doesn’t affect that claim. Resigning truth and falsehood into a single category is a nonstarter. The conclusion here from HL Mencken’s quote is a fallacy called inflation of conflict.

Re: For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

#90
post #71
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Tangentially, I am a bit baffled by folks that are not believers yet try to make sense of a religion, don't they understand hierarchy of belief? I'd not give a damn about religion if it weren't shoving itself in my face everywhere. For example I don't care whatever religion some people on some remote islands may be practicing because they aren't forcing their religious dogmas on me (and as long as they don't abuse o…

You don't care so much you use every opportunity to tell people how much you don't care? Clearly I meant atheists that criticize things they don't even believe in.

What's wrong with criticizing things one doesn't believe in?

Especially if, as the parent noted, that thing one doesn't belief in has—through the actions of people that do believe—negative impacts on one's life?

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