Earlier quoted context omitted.
> What if the person in the room takes a coffee break or goes on vacation? Regular meat-and-bone people lose consciousness all the time, and regain it later. No big deal. > What connects the next computational step they do to the previous one and the next... Whatever index card system or similar the operating procedure in the room prescribes for keeping track of state? > which then somehow gives rise to a fragment of…
> Regular meat-and-bone people lose consciousness all the time, and regain it later. No big deal. So what? There are lots of REAL physical processes that are disrupted in a human being when they lose consciousness. The point of the Chinese Room is to show that information processing alone is insufficient for consciousness. For example is information processing happening when the person pauses for a minute - or not? F…
Consciousness is not computation
731–740 of 767 posts
Re: Consciousness is not computation
#732Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel you're falling in exactly the same trap as the article of assuming that the "feeling" is a property of the analytical machinery of our brains rather than gaining it's perceived complexity as an effect of being combined with that while being separate. It seems wildly presumptuous to assume that lack of ability to communicate some level of awareness necessarily implies the awareness itself is lacking. It could b…
Looking at things like anaesthetics, psychedilic drugs, delerium, sleep, etc, there seems to be plenty of evidence that the phenomena of consciousness is related to the mechanics of the brain. There's also the interesting medical condition of "blindsight", caused by a specific type of brain damage, where the patient reports no conscious awareness of being able to see (they think they are blind), yet are able to compe…
The point is that our ability to recognise whether or not an entity has some level of awareness or subjective experience is entirely dependent on our ability to interrogate that entity about it. We have no other way of measuring this; we don't even know what we'd need to measure.
We can measure brain activity and reason about a brains ability to regain an ability to function and communicate with us and reason, but that measures reasoning capacity, not subjective experience.
As such we don't know whether something has a subjective experience of some form - however simple - or not without being able to measure it. For what we know subjective experience is an inherent property of energy and matter, and everything has it, just at a too limited level to be able to reason about it or communicate about it.
I've explicitly avoided the use consciousness, because consciousness is used in the article for the combination of reasoning and qualia. I've also avoided the term qualia itself because even that is in some conceptions "too high level".
The point is that the article tried to dismiss the notion that the "spark" of qualia on the low level or consciousness at a high level can come from something simpler, and that we're just unaware of it because we can't measure or recognise it. We have nothing to go on to say whether or not there's a fundamental difference between the awareness of a doorknob and a brain; we can say with some level of certainty that there is a difference in the sense that a brain has the complexity to reason about that awareness.
Note that I'm not saying this is true, merely that we don't know, because we don't know what causes the subjective experience, what is is, how to measure it. I'm also not suggesting that even if this is true that this means a doorknob is able to think "I think, therefore I am" or have any kind of reasoning capacity at all.
To use software as an example. If I program a simulation of a doorknob and a simulation of a brain, we don't know if either or both or neither will have any kind of subjective experience. If the subjective experience is down to complexity, the brain might (and the article would be wrong). If the subjective experience is down to some specific arrangement of matter, it's likely neither will (but depending on the criteria, it's possible there are arrangements which could have awareness that we wouldn't recognise). If the subjective experience is an inherent property of energy or matter we don't know how to recognise, it's possible both does, but only the brain simulation will have the complexity and reasoning capability to be able to recognise itself as a self-aware entity and reason about it and tell us about it. The doorknob will be dim and unthinking whether it has the smallest little flicker of subjective experience or not.
I'm inclined to think that the subjective experience is a property requiring complexity, but I'm fully aware (hah!) that this is an assumption, and an entirely untested one that we don't even know how to begin testing.
> There's also the interesting medical condition of "blindsight", caused by a specific type of brain damage, where the patient reports no conscious awareness of being able to see (they think they are blind), yet are able to competently complete tasks requiring vision (such as navigating a cluttered corridor). In other words. It's hard to imagine more direct proof of consciousness being related to brain connectivity.
You're missing the point. It is clear that an ability to reason is tied to the structure of the brain. Nobody here is suggesting e.g. an adder circuit can reason. Again, there is a reason I keep talking about a subjective experience and "some level of awareness".
Blindsight, severed brain stems, or e.g. less obscure conditions such as aphantasia (which I have) can tell us interesting things about how decoupled our subjective experience is from our conscious reasoning (e.g. despite not being able to "see" things for my minds eye, I can "visually reason" about them just fine - I know what things, even things I imagine that has never existed, would look like but I can't see them), but they tell us nothing about whether or not removing the reasoning ability entirely removes awareness or just removes the ability to reason about and communicate about the subjective experience.
We have no way of testing that, because relying on the feedback of a conscious entity with the ability to reason and communicate is our only current way of assessing self awareness and subjective experience given that we don't know what the subjective experience is.
And given that this is subject to self-reporting by an entity we can't independently verify, we can't even tell if people other than ourselves have that subjective experience or are just reasoning machines acting as if they do.
I can probably convince you that I have a subjective experience, but you have no way of proving that I do.
We choose to act on the assumption that everyone does because it's the only reasonable assumption in most circumstances - if I went around questioning if everyone I met were "NPC's" it'd wreak havoc on ethics for example. Absent evidence they are NPCs we need to treat people as self-aware, conscious entities. But it remains an assumption that we at present have no way of testing, and might well never find a way to test, and when trying to talk about the nature of consciousness, like the article does, being aware that it is merely an assumption becomes material to the argument.
Re: Consciousness is not computation
#733Earlier quoted context omitted.
How can the state of consciousness of a worm be evidence for anything, if you can't observe the worm's state of consciousness?
You can infer worm's state of consciousness by observing its behavior, like for humans.
Re: Consciousness is not computation
#734Earlier quoted context omitted.
It may be woo, but how I understand his approach is a rejection of dualism and the Cartesian theater. To commit to physicalism but lean very hard onto what can be asked of it. One must do some kind of move to escape the Cartesian theater. There are those who say consciousness is too hard, and those who say we can take a stab at it. In the latter camp I think he’s more on the right track than anyone major figure I kno…
The Cartesian theatre is the view that there is some special place in the brain that ‘contains’ consciousness. Searle thinks there’s some special biological machinery in brains that causes consciousness. Thats not quite the same thing, but if there is any distinction it’s a pretty darn fine one, and it certainly doesn’t exclude a Cartesian theatre interpretation.
Re: Consciousness is not computation
#735Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you may have missed the point (of course, it could be me that missed the point :-) The argument was that for a physical system to be a computer, an element of intent or interpretation is needed; otherwise it's just a bunch of stuff doing what stuff does naturally. Perhaps the (horribly flawed) iron bar example is making the point that whether some configuration of magnetic dipoles is a computer depends on you…
> computer, an element of intent or interpretation is needed; otherwise it's just a bunch of stuff doing what stuff does naturall I mean this violates nothing and I am completely confused why it is a concern. AI face recognizing cameras are outdoors and run 24/7, and you are trying to say that things like it is not computing and unable to carry out computation?
On the contrary.
The AI-powered camera obviously has intent behind it. It's a computer.
A random collection of stuff, on the other hand, could happen to be arranged in such a way that it computes something; but if it wasn't designed that way, and if nobody is trying to give it inputs and interpret the outputs, then it's not a computer, it's just a bag of stuff.
For example, consider the orbiting bodies of the solar system. I expect their motions can be used to compute various functions, although I don't know what functions. But they weren't arranged deliberately to perform computations, and AFAIAA nobody's intepreting them as a computer. Ergo, they are just a "bag of stuff", doing what stuff does naturally.
Same for the iron bar.
Re: Consciousness is not computation
#736Earlier quoted context omitted.
> My personal experience is that free will is axiomatic. How does that even make sense? "Axiomatic" doesn't mean "true"; it simply means that the axiomatic proposition is a given for the system of reasoning you are using. So if you take X to be axiomatic, that isn't an experience; it's a decision you made. I'm assuming that you can make decisions, because if you are using axioms you are engaged in reasoning, which is…
It's what you have to base everything else on. It comes prior to everything else. Free Will is on the same level as the Cogito. Everything else comes after. I think, therefore I am. What is part of identity? Free will. If not free will, then there is no identity, no "I". Axiomatic means unquestionable. The meaning of axiom as a premise for an argument came later.
Not really; I challenge you to find a dictionary that says the two terms are synonymous.
Originally an axiom was a proposition that was "self-evident". But there's a long history of people questioning "self-evident" propositions, happily for us.
There seems to be a colloquial usage of "axiom" to mean a proposition that someone doesn't want us to question. I deprecate that usage. For example, the Law of The Excluded Middle is an axiom, but it has often been questioned; ergo, it is not unquestionable.
Re: Consciousness is not computation
#737Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, I'm restating (1). That's why my remark was introduced with the phrase "The argument was [...]". In particular, I was trying to rationalise the dumb "iron bar" example as a justification for (1). I don't think you addressed anything; you just flatly denied (1), without offering any reasoning. In particular, you don't seem to have tried to understand the author's attempt to justify (1) using iron bars. For my par…
No. Some things are Turing machines and some are not. Human interaction and interpretation are not involved. This applies to any model of computation. Cellular autonoma for instance. A mind is not required to interact with the system for computation to take place. Take a living cell. No mind is in the loop when the cell computes the manufacture of organelles from stored data. > Four odd socks could be considered a co…
Agreed; that was a rather throwaway rhetorical remark. But if you concede that four socks can be a memory, then it's not a huge jump to see that a bunch of arbitrary objects can in principle compose a computer.
My contention is that whether that arrangement of objects is in fact a computer is subjective; it depends on whether anyone conceives of it as a computer, or uses it to obtain computational results.
Re: Consciousness is not computation
#738Earlier quoted context omitted.
> how do you measure the amount of consciousness? You seem to have assumed that consciousness is a measurable "stuff". My way of seeing it is that consciousness is either present or absent. Thoughts, beliefs and concepts are like ripples on the surface of consciousness, but are not themselves consciousness. So you can have consciousness without thoughts.
There are differing levels of consciousness. Even in a human, we are from time to time, more or less conscious and therefore exhibit sentience based on varying states. This is not simply communication either. As you progress through the evolutionary chain, you see more and more self-awareness and inner thought. This is not binary in terms of whether it exists but is instead based on the level which can differ between…
Consciousness and sentience are not synonymous. It's possible to conceive of being conscious, but having no sense inputs. Without sense inputs, you can't be described as "sentient".
> As you progress through the evolutionary chain
Ah, evolution is always progress! It's not obvious to me that humans are "more evolved" than e.g. ants. I assume ants have less of whatever you are referring to as "self-awareness and inner thought"; but there are many more ants on the planet than humans, and I believe they actually comprise more of the Earth's biomass than humans. So arguably, they are better-adapted to this environment than humans, and so more advanced.
Re: Consciousness is not computation
#739Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can infer worm's state of consciousness by observing its behavior, like for humans.
By observing it's behaviour you can infer that in some sense it experiences the world. Experiencing events isn't the same as being conscious. If I strike a cricket ball, it experiences the blow; but it isn't conscious.
Re: Consciousness is not computation
#740Earlier quoted context omitted.
Okay, so if I use the laws of physics to simulate a human brain, it will behave exactly like a human brain in the real world. Will it also be conscious and experience sadness?
>Will it also be conscious and experience sadness? Imagine you are programming an AI simulation. You could train a detector to associate a certain wavelength with a certain color. When shown a red light, the AI could say "that is red", because it correctly identified the wavelength. But it would never know what it feels like to see red, right? This is similar to how a blind person cannot know what it feels like to se…
But what I can do is imagine creating a physics simulation. There's no gaps in our knowledge there. So again, I'll ask. We create a physics simulation of a human brain. Can the brain write a novel? Answer questions about what it's like to perceive the color red? This is just a yes or no question.