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Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

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Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#371
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider working on both your writing clarity and reading comprehension. "It's not leisure if you don't like it" and "Slavery in entertainment" are easily interpretable as claiming that the entertainment itself is slavery, not the incoherent claim that we're enslaved by the need to work and also entertainment exists. And my comment is quite clearly addressing the latter claim. Of course, I'd work on your emotional st…

i'd work on shutting the fuck up, because your speech reflects your underlying assumptions and if you don't address them soon someone like me will address them for you, slaver

I hope you get the help that you need : (

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, not quite. Negative liberty is an ill defined concept that descends from the need to santize the religious concept of god-given right. In reality, anyone exercising their right to property, for example, interferes with anyone else who might want to use it. It is only justifiable insofar as such an interference allows for more positive liberty in general, which is why positive rights are the only ones that actua…

I'm surprised this is causing so much confusion. > when people hear free society they understand it as a society where you can reasonably do what you want This is indeed what I meant. Hope this clears it up!

Then you must agree that a substantial portion of Americans are not "free" in this sense. So, how is it a "free" society again?

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#373
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure about that. It just seems like too easy an excuse. Just to damn convenient to say, “If only the rich people...”. I fear that the reason that applies much more often is that most of our energy is being spent on doing the wrong things, or being spent on competition with others. Think of somebody building a web scraper: They are spending hours or days building something whose purpose is essentially to overc…

I signed in just to upvote this, so let me ask you this, how do you avoid it?

Thank you. Now I better come up with a good answer, eh?

But I'm afraid I don't have a better answer than that it seems to be a constant struggle. As Feynman said, "The first rule is not to fool yourself. And you are the easiest person to fool". It's incredibly difficult to keep yourself on track. It's just so easy to work on bullshit.

Things that never cease to blow my mind in that regard:

- Asking yourself constantly, "What am I trying to achieve here?" - Disengaging from the computer, going for a walk to lying down in the hammock. Often gives you ideas that you didn't see while you were in the "tunnel vision" of execution. - If you're waiting for result of action A so you can do action B, try if you can't do action B even without action A completed. Often, you will notice that you actually can.

Also, being conscious of the distinction between "labor" and "work" in Hannah Arendt's sense is helpful:

She defines "labor" as anything that is a recurring drain on your time and energy, and necessary to your survival. So, in a sense, it's the equivalent to a business' overhead. Eating food, mowing the lawn - these are all things that you have to do over and over again just to keep "afloat". These are also the things which do not change the future. One month from now, it just won't make much of a difference whether you mowed your lawn today or not.

In contrast, "work" in Arendt's sense is anything where you create something that did not exist before. Something that has a value in and of itself. And which, once created, will continue to exist, and will continue to add value to the future, even if you did drop dead right now. Writing a piece of software that people use. Building a lawn mowing robot. And, not to forget, teaching your kids and being a good role model to them. These are all examples of "work".

This is not to say that, when demands of "work" and "labor" collide, you should always choose the work over the labor. But you should be conscious of the difference, and take that into account when you choose what activity is going to have the greatest value to you.

This is the "keeping yourself on track" part, and the "not wasting your energy on things that do not need to get done".

The other part is the Red Queen / arms race thing. And I think one thing that might be important and useful here is to try to avoid competition (duh!). Or, at least, to be very strategic about when to engage in competition and when not to. Picking your battles, so to speak, as opposed to fighting any battle that presents itself.

I mean, one way some people get out of the rat race is to let others compete against each other. Amazon is doing that with its marketplace sellers. So not allowing yourself to become an Amazon marketplace seller would probably be a good idea. There are always these areas that are "en vogue", where there's a community about it, podcasts about it, etc.. I tend to see those things as red flags. Because if there are people there already "selling shovels", you know that the space is over-crowded. Much better to go some place no one seems to be talking about. Or even a place which, if you talk about it, people will think you're an idiot.

In investing they say, "Buy on fear, sell on greed". The same, I think, applies to choosing where to "invest" your time and energy. Any place that people avoid, do not see, or even fear likely is a much better choice. Although, just as in investing, the price you pay for the freedom from competition is uncertainty, a lack of approval from others, and not being taken seriously. Though one can slowly learn to recognize these symptoms as a sign that the path you've chosen is a good one in terms of being free from hype and competition. That's not a guarantee that it will work out for you, of course. But you're at least playing according to your own rules now.

I'd be happy to continue the conversation.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Older than 30, easily. You were wrong. Accept it, learn from it. Do your best to be more empirical next time or to speak more in a form of probability and by highlighting your assumptions. At least, if you want to make more accurate statements that are actually verifiably true. I think my approach outlined above would help. If you don’t, then I don’t really see the point of your comment.

the vast majority of the people who have too much to do are young. The average person (in my life) is kinda waiting to die. Not suicidal but just clearly waiting for death.

> The vast majority of the people who have too much to do are young.

One can always extend a helping hand into making society more safe, fun and better. Or at least die trying to do that. It doesn't matter how old I get, simply knowing that I can help certain people directly or do my best to advance some state of knowledge by the tiniest bit, in science or in a human being itself means to me that there's always something to do that I'd consider to be meaningful and/or even enjoyable.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#375
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s proletariats all the way down.

I think it eventually moves into others species, both for labor and feedstock.

In the strict scientific sense, Doctor, we all feed on death. Even vegetarians.

— Spock, Star Trek, season 2, eposode 17, Wolf in the Fold (1967)

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#376
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'd work on shutting the fuck up, because your speech reflects your underlying assumptions and if you don't address them soon someone like me will address them for you, slaver

I hope you get the help that you need : (

fuck you, fascist

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#377
post #99
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humanity is much more productive per capita than 50 years ago, but we are collectively working more hours, not less. The goal should not be for everyone to do no work. The goal should not be for everyone to work full time and fear unemployment.

We work more in large part because we consume much more. Increased consumption requires increased supply which requires increased production which means more work to be done.

Shelter costs have also increased massively, not only because shelter has gotten better but because there’s more room in people’s budget for landlords to capture.

Medical and educational costs have risen in the US, I would argue for the same reason.

And some adversarial work has expanded for no reason- look at all the effort spent in high frequency trading that could be replaced by venues running auctions every 100ms instead of having competitions for fractions of a microsecond.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#378
post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I signed in just to upvote this, so let me ask you this, how do you avoid it?

Thank you. Now I better come up with a good answer, eh? But I'm afraid I don't have a better answer than that it seems to be a constant struggle. As Feynman said, "The first rule is not to fool yourself. And you are the easiest person to fool". It's incredibly difficult to keep yourself on track. It's just so easy to work on bullshit. Things that never cease to blow my mind in that regard: - Asking yourself constantl…

It's the power of money that demands that we turn our efforts -- and therefore, ourselves -- into commodities. When money becomes a force in and of itself (separate from the people wielding it) then it begins to mold society in its own image: cold, liquid, and homogenous. Competition isn't in and of itself a bad thing, but when we allow money complete control over our lives, we strive in ways that benefit people farther and farther removed from us, and therefore, become more alienated.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#379
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who quotes the "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" line has never met a working class person. Nobody thinks that. I worked in a plastic factory for ten years and it's very clear there is no path up from making $45k to anything higher than plant manager. People who are just feeding a grinding machine expect even less. My feeling is that most of my coworkers felt somewhat exploited and envious, but they didn'…

>distinguish themselves from the low-status welfare recipients That's literally the same concept as temporarily embarrassed millionaires. Its all class warfare and the distinction you make is useless in the grand scheme

This is rationally protecting what status you do have, not fooling yourself into believing you are much higher status than you appear. This is normal behavior you can see discussed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersignaling. The embarrassed millionaires theory infantilizes working-class people with a false-consciousness argument that doesn't seem to understand that class warfare has gradations other than "rich" and "poor".

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#380
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>distinguish themselves from the low-status welfare recipients That's literally the same concept as temporarily embarrassed millionaires. Its all class warfare and the distinction you make is useless in the grand scheme

This is rationally protecting what status you do have, not fooling yourself into believing you are much higher status than you appear. This is normal behavior you can see discussed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersignaling . The embarrassed millionaires theory infantilizes working-class people with a false-consciousness argument that doesn't seem to understand that class warfare has gradations other than "ric…

Distinguishing yourself as being in a separate class from someone else has nothing to do with preserving anything, that sounds like absolute nonsense to me. Its some classiest BS designed to keep the poor working class fighting each other
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