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GitHub Copilot is generally available

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Re: GitHub Copilot is generally available

#701

Post by rmbyrro »

blip54321 wrote: post #570
lsh123 wrote: post #555

I assume that Copilot uses open source projects on GitHub to “learn” what to suggest. Some of these projects might be under, say, GPL v3. A developer uses Copilot for a commercial project and Copilot insert a complete function from a GPL v3 code into this project. Someone notices this and sues the commercial project for breaking GPL v3. Will GitHub pickup the tab?

Damages. This question will come back to damages. If you steal 10 lines of code from me, the damages will be the greater of: - The benefit to you (10 minutes programmer time) - The cost to me ($0) - Statutory damages (probably $200) In other words, it's very unlikely to be worth a lawsuit. The most likely outcome is: - A legal letter is sent - Infringing code is removed - As good bedside manner, some nominal amount o…

> - The benefit to you (10 minutes programmer time)

That's an incomplete view. You're judging the value by the time it'd take to rewrite it.

The real value is in knowing what to type and why.

When Co-pilot suggests you a GPL code, it's main value is the knowledge, not the typing.

That piece of knowledge may have taken a LOT of effort from an OSS team to acquire.

Depending on the context, this knowledge would be worth millions.

Worth a lawsuit.

Re: GitHub Copilot is generally available

#702

Post by Winsaucerer »

eurasiantiger wrote: post #637
omginternets wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis, but feel like it’s ignoring the elephant in the room: writing code is not the bottleneck in need of optimization. Conceiving the solution is. Any time “saved” through Copilot and it’s ilk is immediately nullified by having to check it’s correctness. From there, the problem is worsened by the Frankensteinesque stitching together of disparate parts that you describe. I can’t i…

You haven’t tried Copilot, have you?

I have, and it was producing impressive results. However, I was trying to learn Rust and to do so I needed to do the hard yards myself. Moreover, in my brief time using it, it was switching me to a code reviewing frame of mind rather than thinking through the problem.

I thought it might be more useful to me for a language I’m already good at, or one I’m not trying to master but just need to get a task done for.

Re: GitHub Copilot is generally available

#703

Post by weird-eye-issue »

AJRF wrote: post #693
ascorbic wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I'm not coding all day so closer to 5%, but for anyone earning over $200/month that should be worthwhile.

> Well I'm not coding all day so closer to 5% If you don't code much, and CoPilot only helps with with 5% of that small amount of code, that makes it sound not at all useful.

Read the thread again but slower this time

Re: GitHub Copilot is generally available

#704

Post by alexeldeib »

rmbyrro wrote: post #697
keyle wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a polyglot who works in 4-5 different languages every 3-6 months, it's been very valuable. I forget a lot of things, simple dumb stuff like type conversions or specific keywords spelling. Copilot takes care of 99% of that so I can focus on my higher level spec. If anything sometimes it's too agressive. I start typing a word and it's already building up the rest of the application in a different direction...

Isn't your forgetting issue something that spaced repetition would solve while also building confidence in yourself?

I find it’s less about actually forgetting and more about all the mundane details I usually bounce around a codebase to find. What’s the third argument to that function again? Oh, copilot autocompleted it correctly.

It’s not always right but it’s right enough it’s a big timesaver.

Re: GitHub Copilot is generally available

#705

Post by blagie »

rmbyrro wrote: post #697
keyle wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a polyglot who works in 4-5 different languages every 3-6 months, it's been very valuable. I forget a lot of things, simple dumb stuff like type conversions or specific keywords spelling. Copilot takes care of 99% of that so I can focus on my higher level spec. If anything sometimes it's too agressive. I start typing a word and it's already building up the rest of the application in a different direction...

Isn't your forgetting issue something that spaced repetition would solve while also building confidence in yourself?

No. Spaced repetition is a good tool for learning vocabulary.

It's not a silver bullet / holy grail / MacGuffin / etc.

There's a community of people obsessed with spaced repetition. None of them seem to have accomplished spectacular feats of learning. There's a good reason for that.

(The flip side, however, is that many people who have accomplished spectacular feats of learning DO often use spaced repetition, but among a broader repertoire).

Re: GitHub Copilot is generally available

#706

Post by blagie »

rmbyrro wrote: post #699
culi wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really like it too but I can't help but feel like all the same people panicked about Microsoft acquiring GitHub are suddenly quiet about the fact that Microsoft has found the ultimate way to profit off of open-source There's a ton of developer effort that went into Copilot and those devs should be paid fairly. But the majority of what fuels Copilot is the millions of lines of open source code submitted every day. I…

They're providing Copilot for free for OSS maintainers.

OSS maintainer here.

No. They're not. They're advertising that they are.

They are providing it to a very small set of high-profile OSS maintainers some opaque algorithm picked out. Having high-profile adopters is just good business.

Re: GitHub Copilot is generally available

#708

Post by blagie »

codegladiator wrote: post #578
blip54321 wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damages. This question will come back to damages. If you steal 10 lines of code from me, the damages will be the greater of: - The benefit to you (10 minutes programmer time) - The cost to me ($0) - Statutory damages (probably $200) In other words, it's very unlikely to be worth a lawsuit. The most likely outcome is: - A legal letter is sent - Infringing code is removed - As good bedside manner, some nominal amount o…

Do you see a scope for troll code GPLers, something along the lines of troll patents ?

No. There's nothing magical about GPL code. Sticking a license on code doesn't suddenly lead to astronomical damages.

No one has won billions of dollars on GPL enforcement. It's not how courts work. Contrary to popular belief, courts also won't compel compliance (e.g. releasing my code); if I break your license, the standard recourse is damages, whether that's GPL or All Rights Reserved.

Otherwise, I'd make the First Born Child license, whereby by using my code, you give me full ownership of your first born child, your home, your car, and your bank account. I could write a license like that right now, but I couldn't force you to give me your child, car, bank account, and home. If you used my code, you'd have the option to accept the license and give me those things. Or you could reject it, in which case, it's a normal copyright violation; in that case, whatever I wrote in the license is moot, and you pay damages (and stop using my code).

Re: GitHub Copilot is generally available

#709

Post by blagie »

runeks wrote: post #675
lsh123 wrote: post #555

I assume that Copilot uses open source projects on GitHub to “learn” what to suggest. Some of these projects might be under, say, GPL v3. A developer uses Copilot for a commercial project and Copilot insert a complete function from a GPL v3 code into this project. Someone notices this and sues the commercial project for breaking GPL v3. Will GitHub pickup the tab?

> A developer uses Copilot for a commercial project and Copilot insert a complete function from a GPL v3 code into this project. Honest question: can a function have a license? Ie. can a function be copyrighted? If an MIT library and a GPL library use the same function with some minor variation and I use the function from the GPL code in my commercial project, have I infringed on someone’s copyright/license? Or would…

Honest answer:

- Yes, functions are copyrighted.

- Copyrights are not patents, and providence matters. If you and I independently both come up with the same text, we both have a right to use it. If it could be proven in a court of law that by a 10^(-100,000) chance, we both wrote an identical novel, we'd both have copyrights to our work.

- Conversely, if you took my creative work, the fact that someone else came up with the same creative work isn't a defence

- If the code you borrowed went MIT->GPL->your code, things get very ambiguous. The copyright holder is the original author if the GPL code made no changes.

- For just one function, you might be able to get away with a fair use defence. There's a four-prong test, which is pretty fuzzy. You'd do well on some prongs ("the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole") and poorly on others ("the purpose and character of the use").

- For something like copilot inserting it, you do much better, since intent matters too.

Re: GitHub Copilot is generally available

#710

Post by tirpen »

runeks wrote: post #675
lsh123 wrote: post #555

I assume that Copilot uses open source projects on GitHub to “learn” what to suggest. Some of these projects might be under, say, GPL v3. A developer uses Copilot for a commercial project and Copilot insert a complete function from a GPL v3 code into this project. Someone notices this and sues the commercial project for breaking GPL v3. Will GitHub pickup the tab?

> A developer uses Copilot for a commercial project and Copilot insert a complete function from a GPL v3 code into this project. Honest question: can a function have a license? Ie. can a function be copyrighted? If an MIT library and a GPL library use the same function with some minor variation and I use the function from the GPL code in my commercial project, have I infringed on someone’s copyright/license? Or would…

> Ie. can a function be copyrighted?

    def print_harry_potter_book_1():
    
        print("Chapter One")
        print("The boy who lived")
        
        print("Mr. and Mrs. Dursley, of number four, Privet Drive, were")
        print("proud to say that they were perfectly normal, thank")
        print("you very much. they were the last people you’d expect to be in-")
        print("volved in anything strange or mysterious, because they just didn’t")
        print("hold with such nonsense.")
        print("Mr. Dursley was the director of a firm called Grunnings, which")
        print("made drills. He was a big, beefy man with hardly any neck, al-")
        print("though he did have a very large mustache. Mrs. Dursley was thin")
        print("and blonde and had nearly twice the usual amount of neck, which")
        print("came in very useful as she spent so much of her time craning over")
        print("garden fences, spying on the neighbors. the Dursleys had a small")
        print("son called Dudley and in their opinion there was no finer boy")
        print("anywhere.")
        [...]
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