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Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

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191–200 of 254 posts

Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#191
post #171
post #147

The FF industry is leaping (has leapt, historically) on CCS as a getout clause and has sunk french metric tonnes of money into CCS. So far, its uneconomic except for the specific use of pumping gas into wells to make them more productive, which leads to more fugitive gas. No significant CCS experiment worldwide has achieved its goals as sequestration. The one in Western Australia releases so much CO2 it has to pay a…

I think you are probably right, but some references would really be helpful. Could you share any that you have handy?

(Strongly anti) https://michaelwest.com.au/carbon-capture-and-storage-epic-f...

(Neutral to anti) https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-11-06/carbon-captur...

(Weakly pro) https://www.iea.org/commentaries/carbon-capture-in-2021-off-...

(Strongly pro) https://www.globalccsinstitute.com/resources/publications-re...

Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US already struggles to build transmission lines across state lines. Building across nations is basically impossible.

Except it happens all the time. Canada exports Gwh to the US every year. Laos is a big exporter too (mainly to Thailand I think), Paraguay to Brazil, and obviously around europe.

Sure there are some US-Canada connections but those take years/decades if they ever get approved

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/maine-voters-reject-q...

The other places are more authoritarian and don't need to deal with NIMBYism

Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#193
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US already struggles to build transmission lines across state lines. Building across nations is basically impossible.

It's happening, though, so it's not impossible. https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/israel-cyprus...

There's a big gap between securing funding and actually completing large infrastructure projects. We have a bunch of cancelled nuclear power plants halfway through construction from NIMBYism, cost overruns, office changes, etc.

Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#194
post #184
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me quote Clark, from Ignition! https://library.sciencemadness.org/library/books/ignition.pd... > the nature of the chemical industry being what it was, and is, one could be confident that it would come down to a reasonable figure when anybody wanted it in quantity.

We do want and produce ammonia in immense quantities already, so no, it’s not reasonable to bet on cost going down significantly.

We produce it in immense quantity from fossil fuels and vent the fossil CO2 into the atmosphere.

The price of which is forecast to go up.

Green Ammonia is made from renewable energy, which is forecast to become cheaper.

It also requires electrolysers which are ramping up production and are also predicted to fall in price as they get made at scale from cheaper components.

So it's a fairly safe bet even if you don't believe all the published academic papers that go through the working in great detail, or the business cases that predict a multi-Billion dollar market for it.

Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#195

Ammonia has been mentioned a few times in this thread, but I will expand a bit, because I believe it is the most promising hydrogen-based approach. Essentially, the idea is to use ammonia directly as fuel. There is an ARPA-E funded project (that I'm currently failing to find) that cracks ammonia into hydrogen and nitrogen using heat. They claim that they can create a mixture of H2 and ammonia that will burn at any re…

To add on to this comment for anyone curious about ammonia: Green ammonia production is among the top 10 emerging technologies in chemistry in 2021 [1,2]. The Haber-Bosch process consumes 1% of the worlds global energy, and generates 1.4% of the worlds carbon dioxide [3].

That being said there is a lot of research both to generate ammonia from green energy, and the work to harvest ammonia for use as a fuel cell would benefit as a secondary emergent technology.

[1] https://iupac.org/what-we-do/top-ten/ [2] https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/ci-2021-0404/... [3] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41929-019-0414-4

Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#196
post #147

The FF industry is leaping (has leapt, historically) on CCS as a getout clause and has sunk french metric tonnes of money into CCS. So far, its uneconomic except for the specific use of pumping gas into wells to make them more productive, which leads to more fugitive gas. No significant CCS experiment worldwide has achieved its goals as sequestration. The one in Western Australia releases so much CO2 it has to pay a…

CCS = Carbon Capture and Storage

You should clarify what an acronym means before using it tens of times.

Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#198
post #25

I don't see hydrogen playing any role for energy storage or grid demand balancing. Even if all the technical and engineering challenges associated with storing and transporting it safely could be addressed, I just don't see how the economics of green hydrogen is supposed to work. The round-trip energy efficiency of electrolysis-fuel cell is poor - currently about 40%. The counter-argument is that such inefficiency do…

I agree that at current CapEx you could never run a plant 1/3 of the time and make it look good but I think this ignore two things:

1) If you take net zero as a hard goal, i.e. not one that is subject to economic tests except in relative terms then hydrogen as large scale energy storage only has to beat alternative technologies, regardless of how expensive it is.

Battery storage will absolutely dominate intra-day balancing and hydrogen will have no role to play there but the high cost per unit of energy stored of a battery doesn't work for inter-seasonal or for dealing with an unusually high demand year. (in a European context, a very cold winter for instance). No, future cost reductions will not solve that for the simple reason that the capital cost of a unit of battery capacity has to be recovered over its cycles. So a battery that cycles once a year incurs 365x the capital cost per cycle that one which cycles once a day does. In many renewable dominated power markets, current battery tech is competitive in the intra-day market. To be equally competitive in the seasonal market, you'd need two orders of magnitude cost reduction which doesn't seem possible on materials cost grounds alone. I don't see how iron-air and other battery chemistries stack up here either and to be honest, if we're going to compare long term energy storage technologies on a level playing field we have to compare like with like. We can't say "batteries" are getting much better and cheaper and are proven technology compared to hydrogen storage and then it turns out that the batteries in question are early stage VC projects.

When I look at the trajectory of grid scale battery storage vs hydrogen, I see a battery technology developing that will completely own the intra-day and probably the intra-week world but that has no chance of dealing with seasonal peaks.

Europe is prone to extended periods of cold, overcast, and windless weather which lasts for weeks and stretches from Ireland to the practically the Urals. That is the system stress condition and no system that cannot handle it can be said to be functional. The same might not be true everywhere, solar has less variation than wind and maybe California doesn't need seasonal storage, I don't know, but this is at least one area of the world which does and I suspect there are more.

Ideas which involve very long distance electricity transmission simply will not work for geopolitical reasons. If anyone fantasised about it before February of this year, they can now forget about it. No doubt electricity will be moved substantial distances but no government will allow the ability of its citizens to have winter heating / summer cooling to depend instantaneously on governments it cannot trust. Short distance integration of the kind we see in Western Europe, sure, but that doesn't really help because there's a lot of temperature, wind and insolation correlation between those countries anyway.

So hydrogen storage is lossy but the alternatives don't make the models stack up, except for a massive wave of nuclear new-build. I don't know which will be cheaper but these are both not cheap options. Proposed alternatives have to pass the test of dealing with this seasonal (and multi-year scale issue)

2) If you look at where power generation is going in high renewables markets, it is clear that we will soon have a situation where for many thousands of hours a year, we have deeply oversupplied instantaneous demand. That will be true even after intra-day load shifting, EV charging etc. This is in fact efficient since the cost of undersupply is asymmetric and vastly higher than the economic cost of oversupply. The system will be net long for most of the year and net short for a much smaller number of hours, during which period the value of dispatchable energy will be very high. More overbuilding shortens the net-short period but creates much more energy over-generated over the course of the year.

That means that your capital intensive electrolyser plant can run at full capacity the majority of the time, reduced capacity occasionally, and has to be off maybe 10% to 20% of the time. That is much easier to make work than 33%.

(I am assuming only modest electrolyser cost reductions)

The issues I have with a lot of analysis of hydrogen is that people do a quick order of magnitude comparison to either fossil gas or to batteries in the intra-day world and say, "why would you do this?" as a rhetorical question when they should be noting that fossil gas isn't a long term option, batteries aren't playing in the more than a day market at all (since there is currently no reason for such a thing to exist) and asking the question seriously rather than rhetorically.

People have been spoiled by the easy energy transition successes so far, moderately deep penetration of wind and solar into electricity and EVs and they expect that the whole energy transition will be delivered by technologies that compare favourably even without costing carbon emissions with the fossil fuels they displace and the reality is that we are not owed a set of technologies that are cheaper than fossil fuels.

Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#199
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The solar energy that can be captured throughout the year using not much more than the roof area of a single-family home would be enough to cover its entire annual energy needs, both for electricity and heating. The problem is that you need to store about 30,000 kWh of energy over a period of several months. That’s on the order of 400 Tesla Model 3 batteries worth of storage. Not only is it prohibitively exp…

The peoblem is your consumption of energy happens through you consuming goods, and energy was used to produce them, so its industrial.

That’s a good point. But for industry, it could work the same. Solar plus seasonal storage. Probably not important for countries like the US, that don’t depend on imports of oil and gas. But for those countries to do, being able to utilize the energy that comes down from the sky for free could be a game changer both in terms of economics and foreign affairs.

Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#200

Funny how Bill Gates always talks about global warming, but then owns mega mansions, super yachts, and flies all over the world in private jets

I see the same cognitive dissonance repeated all the time. Most people say they understand climate change is a problem but they are unwilling to make any changes that might make their life slightly less comfortable.
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