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Racism in Tech

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Re: Racism in Tech

#71
Yeah, some people are genuinely racist, but the fact is that most aren't. What most people incorrectly call "racism" is actually culture fit issues.

When someone's culture is sufficiently different from yours, it becomes enough of an unknown to engender fear. And fear due to the unknown leads to paranoid thought, usually at the subconscious level.

For example, if you get a job candidate whose demeanor screams "from the hood", you'll definitely pass him/her over. The last thing you want is for them to start a fight over "respect", or bring some "friends" over to rob the place (deliberate hyperbole, yes, but this is how the subconscious works). Similarly, anyone who has had much contact with Indian culture will know that fraud and corruption are tolerated far more readily than they are in the West. This means that you need to be on your guard lest the person of that culture starts behaving as if in that culture. I've seen it happen enough times in my own experiences, so this is not just idle speculation. This is also why second gen people have a much easier time of it.

You may argue that you shouldn't "sell out" on your culture just to get ahead ("acting white", for example). I would argue that in remaining "true to your roots", you hobble yourself by deliberately refusing to make it easier for the majority to accept you.

I've lived on both sides of this issue. I've seen actually racist people, but far more often I've seen people who are afraid of the cultural divide, and move to protect themselves accordingly. I've also seen people change their own culture to better match the one of the majority, and they made FAR better lives for themselves than those who refused to do so.

Do racism and sexism exist? Of course they do. And in the rare cases where you DO encounter the real thing, it is your duty as a civilized person to put a stop to it. But when it's merely a culture issue, raising a stink about it will do nothing more than stir up resentment.

Re: Racism in Tech

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's certainly a lot of dislike for working with people who have strong accents, and the most commercially successful Indian technologists I have met have been the ones with the most westernised mode of speech. Unfortunately some people take a fairly legitimate gripe (lack of easy communication) and pre-judge an entire group rather than investigating the skills and attributes of a specific individual.

I worked for 13 years doing phone based technical support. I can tell you that people with a strong accent are often seen as 'stupid'. I worked with several Indian co-workers and it wasn't unusual to have calls transferred to me (no accent) because people didn't want to talk to them. As a team lead I got to listen in to those calls, and it's amazing how badly one human being can treat another. There's the passive agg…

To a certain degree, what you're saying is even true among people in the US from different regions here.

Put someone with a deep southern mountain accent and someone with a Brooklyn accent on the phone and they'll feel at odd with each other. Surveyed afterward, they will both probably feel the other is stupid and didn't understand them on simple things.

I myself remember my first experience with someone at a call center, who I can only assume wasn't in the US. I was calling Network Solutions in high school about a domain registration. The person on the phone I recall as having an Indian accent, which I didn't mind so much, but I did feel at odd with them when I needed to spell my first name (David) out to them using the NATO phonetic alphabet. It just struck me as so incredibly odd at the time that someone would potentially mishear or misspell the name David. However, I quickly realized that it was simply a cultural difference. I myself would probably get a common Indian name like "Sita" wrong. Was that Seeta? Seta? Seata? Site? Its only 4 letters, but I could screw it up for sure. I've since been more understanding of people at support lines.

Just as people often say that racism is ignorance, I do have to feel that this wasn't me being against anyone from India (as I actually knew very few people who maintained much Indian culture, language or accent where I lived at the time), but being ignorant and impatient with what was normal for them vs what was normal for me. Thankfully I learned.

Re: Racism in Tech

#73
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, brown / "arab" are the new blacks to get stares and all that.

I'm actually one of these brown / "arab" new blacks you speak of incidentally (I'm from Algeria) and I haven't had this problem. But I do not have an accent and I've sort of "integrated" well within American culture. I can see where someone who is not so well-integrated and comes with an accent might see some trouble, but if they can code with quality and work in teams well, all that goes out the window.

In my experience once most middle eastern/arab people are "integrated", people see their appearance as vaguely mediterranean and don't really think twice about it.

Re: Racism in Tech

#74
post #6

This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer... I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp. I have launched 10+ projects for clients this year alone. I have 1 failed contract where I left because it just didn't work out. When I had success it was not because I was black and when I failed it was not because I was black. Both when I have succeeded and when I have failed was neve…

...and there is a terrible corrosive effect when perceived minorities are given a 'leg up' - that they are not really deserving/talented. Whether part of the hidden neurological bias mentioned, or even true, it means other capable people who happen to belong to that minority get a shadow cast on their accomplishments.

{German-austrian 4th-generation Iowan.}

Re: Racism in Tech

#75
post #35

Racism exists everywhere. In fact, prejudice of all kinds does. And probably always will. I worked a company where the employees felt it was okay to make racist or sexist jokes with the person in the room, so long as the person didn't appear to mind. It made me terribly uncomfortable, but short of going to management, nothing I said or did mattered. (I didn't make an ass of myself, though. If the person isn't going t…

Maybe they didn't mind. But I've definitely heard friends in various non-dominant groups tell stories about the racist, sexist, or anti-gay bias they've listened to politely because they liked their jobs more than they liked being honest about the fact that they thought their co-workers were irredeemable assholes. No way to tell, really. I will say, though, that the experience is very different when you're part of th…

I found it hard to believe they didn't mind, even if I know I wouldn't. In 1 case, I was sure the person minded, but he told me repeated that he didn't. This person was an excellent coder, and ended up quitting a couple years later. The quit was probably for some of the other working conditions that didn't go well with his personality (he couldn't say 'no', they kept asking unreasonable things) but I think the whole package mattered.

I also see your point about it mattering more when you aren't part of the majority, or if you felt there might be a threat to your person.

Re: Racism in Tech

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's certainly a lot of dislike for working with people who have strong accents, and the most commercially successful Indian technologists I have met have been the ones with the most westernised mode of speech. Unfortunately some people take a fairly legitimate gripe (lack of easy communication) and pre-judge an entire group rather than investigating the skills and attributes of a specific individual.

I'm not blaming them, racism is always unfair to the recipient but on projects I've worked on Indians have done absolutely nothing to combat it. By that I mean, they hang out together, they go to lunch together, they basically avoid any unnecessary communication with non-Indians. I ask them to go to lunch and I get a reaction like "um, we kinda go to lunch together." I understand that there are a lot of cultural barr…

I've taken the care to invite foreign engineers to dinner at my home at each job I take. In each case the comment is the same - "This is the first American home I've been invited into." Never mind they were 2, 5 or 10 years working in America.

So don't blame them entirely.

Re: Racism in Tech

#77
post #6

This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer... I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp. I have launched 10+ projects for clients this year alone. I have 1 failed contract where I left because it just didn't work out. When I had success it was not because I was black and when I failed it was not because I was black. Both when I have succeeded and when I have failed was neve…

I have never encountered racism, therefore there is no racism. And anyone who thinks they're being discriminated against is a lazy whiner.

Re: Racism in Tech

#78
I'm black and a software engineer for 14 yrs (college degree), and although I know there are racist people out there, I've never encountered any even once in 14 years across a ton of companies (startups, fortune 500 companies, etc)

If you can produce something of value, no one gives a shit about your race. The hundreds of people I've met in tech have been race blind as far as i could tell. I think the tech industry in general is a meritocracy from my experience.

I would never join a race based startup, as that seems quite lame to me. Then again, perhaps I'm an outlier as I think race based anything is stupid (BET, etc). We're like 99.9% the same yet people think a chemical within their skin alters something intrinsically about us. Absurd

It really comes down to poor role models in the black community, poor education & not enough resources. Why would anyone care about your race if you are producing.

I think racist people in tech would be the exception, not the rule.

Re: Racism in Tech

#79
> Especially at a government facility. In the United States. In 2011. In the tech business.

Humans have accumulated (recorded) vast sums of knowledge, and have become more efficient at building things using that knowledge, but human nature has not "evolved". The human brain has remained about the same for the last 20,000 years (give or take a few thousand years). There have been no quantum leaps here. We are exactly what we were 10 years ago, 100 years ago, 1000 years ago, etc.

That's the real problem... That people think that somehow they are "evolved" because the year is 2011. And hence the segmentation begins again... Always seeing your-group as different from other-group, segmenting everything.

A person that pretends that they are not racist, is one that pretend that they are better than the racist... The problem is they are doing the exact same thing as the racist, just on a higher level.

Re: Racism in Tech

#80
post #6

This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer... I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp. I have launched 10+ projects for clients this year alone. I have 1 failed contract where I left because it just didn't work out. When I had success it was not because I was black and when I failed it was not because I was black. Both when I have succeeded and when I have failed was neve…

I would say that there could very well be strategic advantages to being part of a "black" incubator. Peer encouragement/validation, communication, shared experiences, etc. As I understand it, culture is a big part of any startup, and a culturally-oriented incubator could attract people who mesh well together.

I am also a black programmer, yet my experience has likely been a bit different. I've found considerable social and professional benefits to working and networking with people who look like me.

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